Spectator vs Caddy

[krupicka]

How does one define the difference between a spectator and a caddy. I'm not talking about events like the USDGC where spectators are kept separate from the players, but your local C or B tier. If someone is walking with a group, what differentiates the two?

When does the competition rules (section 3.5) kick in?

For example: Consider an event held at a venue that is not closed to the public (this is a fairly common occurrence in our area). Player's friend is walking with the group, but is not carrying their bag. Do PDGA rules about dress code, alcohol, dogs, etc. apply to this person?

 

[krupicka]

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that said person is courteous, staying out the way, dog leashed, not drunk, etc.

 

[kenjiac]

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that said person is courteous, staying out the way, dog leashed, not drunk, etc.

Then there would be no issues to worry about. Moot discussion. Come we want the story of what an A-hole some guys friend was. LOL

 

[krupicka]

It's actually a serious question. As a TD I am expected to follow the competition manual for my events. If I get a complaint about a non-player walking with a group, I need to know how to define caddy to know whether or not the player should be penalized.

 

[bradharris]

It's actually a serious question. As a TD I am expected to follow the competition manual for my events. If I get a complaint about a non-player walking with a group, I need to know how to define caddy to know whether or not the player should be penalized.

It's hard to establish a clear demarcation line between spectator and caddy that would apply to all situations. If/when this situation arises, you'll have to evaluate it individually to determine the appropriate action.

As a general rule, I would say anyone that is walking with and interacting with the group is under the rules of a caddy. Whoever he is there to support is responsible for his actions. If he's staying off to the side with little interaction with the players, then I would treat him more as a spectator.

And of course, if it's difficult to identify a player who should be responsible for the non-player's actions, then no one should be penalized for his actions.

 

[juju]

Thread does not deliver. Subject made me think there was video of a caddy and spectator getting into a tussle.

D-

 

[coupe]

As a general rule, I would say anyone that is walking with and interacting with the group is under the rules of a caddy.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

I rarely compete in sanctioned tournaments due to work and family responsibilities, but will often attend the final round as a spectator to take in the action, particularly if there are old friends who no longer live in the immediate area are competing. Most of those friends are within 10-15 rating points of each other, which means that, more often than not, two or more will be on the same card. I think it's a stretch to say that the fact that we chat with one another while walking down the fairway or between holes means that, for rules purposes, I should be treated as a caddy.

I would consider a person a specator unless he or she regularly performs the tasks/duties expected of a caddy. (Emphasis on "regularly" because I would argue that there's a qualitative difference between offering to carry someone's bag for a few holes, for example, and picking up a player's bag to save him a few steps and speed the flow of play, after he's canned a fairway ace or a long putt and is running to the hole to clear the basket.)

 

[bradharris]

I'm not sure I agree with this.

I rarely compete in sanctioned tournaments due to work and family responsibilities, but will often attend the final round as a spectator to take in the action, particularly if there are old friends who no longer live in the immediate area are competing. Most of those friends are within 10-15 rating points of each other, which means that, more often than not, two or more will be on the same card. I think it's a stretch to say that the fact that we chat with one another while walking down the fairway or between holes means that, for rules purposes, I should be treated as a caddy.

I would consider a person a specator unless he or she regularly performs the tasks/duties expected of a caddy. (Emphasis on "regularly" because I would argue that there's a qualitative difference between offering to carry someone's bag for a few holes, for example, and picking up a player's bag to save him a few steps and speed the flow of play, after he's canned a fairway ace or a long putt and is running to the hole to clear the basket.)

The entire intent of the rule is simply to make sure that players keep their caddy from interfering with play. If you're walking with your buddies, drinking and causing distractions, then your buddies need to tell you to behave so that they don't get penalized for your stupidity.

If you're being respectful to the other competitors, then it doesn't matter if you're a caddy or a spectator.

 

[Pbmercil]

It's hard to establish a clear demarcation line between spectator and caddy that would apply to all situations. If/when this situation arises, you'll have to evaluate it individually to determine the appropriate action.

As a general rule, I would say anyone that is walking with and interacting with the group is under the rules of a caddy. Whoever he is there to support is responsible for his actions. If he's staying off to the side with little interaction with the players, then I would treat him more as a spectator.

And of course, if it's difficult to identify a player who should be responsible for the non-player's actions, then no one should be penalized for his actions.

I think this is very much on point. That is how I would run it myself.

 

[JoakimBL]

While I agree with most being said here, I have also pointed out in the past that there needs to be a definition of caddy, when the rules/competition manual uses this designation. Most of the time it doesn't matter, and in the rare occurrences where it is an issue, it will be obvious if the person is a caddy or not. None the less, the term "Caddy" should be defined by the PDGA, and not by random players or TD's put in an awkward situation.

 

[DavidSauls]

What we're really talking about here is entourages --- friends and family walking with players. I think governing is mostly a matter of diplomacy, rather than rules enforcement.

With very few exceptions, our tournaments allow fans to mix in with the players, and most are conducted in public parks where non-players have access. This doesn't leave TDs with much control over non-players, and players may not really have much control over their company.

So we can ask the entourage to behave. We can ask the player to ask the entourage to behave. If we have exclusive rights to the course, we can threaten to remove the troublemakers. If we don't, we can bluff it.

Mostly, we just hope the issue doesn't come up.

 

[JC17393]

The only real way to differentiate caddy vs spectator is to introduce ropes to every disc golf event. By ropes, I mean a physical demarcation between the participants and the observers. Ball golf ropes off spectators from the players, and the only ones allowed inside the ropes have to have permission to be there (media credentials, tournament officials, players and official caddies). For 99% of disc golf tournaments, that sort of effort is futile if not impossible (who has the staff to organize spectators?).

Until we reach a point where that is possible at every event, the onus has to remain on the TD on the ground to determine how to handle spectators vs caddies rather than a blanket set of rules.

 

[geoloseth]

In most cases it's easier to determine a caddie vs a spectator than you think. If a player asks for any kind of playing suggestion from a person then they are performing caddie duties. The true spectators that play DG are very rarely a problem at events. If there park patrons that stop and follow the players usually the players will give them a heads up if they need them to move out of the way or stand still. Even watching large groups of non DG follow a card of touring pros they learned quickly where to stand and what to do during play.

If you want to address the issue at the player's meeting then just let everyone know that if they ask someone for help or let someone carry their belongings that the person is now considered to be their caddie and that the player is responsible for their actions. And a caddie can be warned/stroked just as a player can and it will count against the player as well.

Good luck. I know you'll pull of the event without any problems.

 

[krupicka]

It's not as easy as you make it out to be which is why a definition is required. Assume a guy is accompanying his girlfriend at an event and he has their well behaved dog with them. If he is a spectator, it's a public park and there is nothing in the rules about spectator's dogs. But based on some opinions above, as soon as he says "You should probably throw your blue disc", he becomes a caddy and needs to take his dog and leave.

 

[DavidSauls]

If a friend volunteers to caddy for me, he or she better be carrying my stuff and not just telling me what I should throw.

 

[bradharris]

It's not as easy as you make it out to be which is why a definition is required. Assume a guy is accompanying his girlfriend at an event and he has their well behaved dog with them. If he is a spectator, it's a public park and there is nothing in the rules about spectator's dogs. But based on some opinions above, as soon as he says "You should probably throw your blue disc", he becomes a caddy and needs to take his dog and leave.

I disagree that a more precise definition is required. Just look at the intent of the rule. It's in place to ensure that all players can expect a certain level of etiquette within their playing group at any sanctioned tournament. The playing group includes not just players, but anyone else walking the course and interacting with the players.

If a person is walking with and interacting with a group with a beer in one hand and a dog leash in the other, then the TD should ask that person to spectate from a distance. If he refuses to leave "It's a public park, I can do what I want" then if he's there in support of a particular player, that player should be assessed a courtesy violation, regardless of whether or not the offending individual actually performs any caddy-like duties. The fact that he is walking the course and interacting directly with the group is enough to call him a caddy for the purpose of the rule.

 

[JoakimBL]

I disagree that a more precise definition is required. [...]
If a person is walking with and interacting with a group with a beer in one hand and a dog leash in the other, then the TD should ask that person to spectate from a distance. If he refuses to leave "It's a public park, I can do what I want" then if he's there in support of a particular player, that player should be assessed a courtesy violation, regardless of whether or not the offending individual actually performs any caddy-like duties. The fact that he is walking the course and interacting directly with the group is enough to call him a caddy for the purpose of the rule.

This is exactly why a more precise definition (or any definition, actually) is required, because I strongly disagree with your definition of a caddy. What if the player has already asked the spectator to behave, is he still responsible?
Actually, any reference to a caddy, without explaining what constitutes such a person is useless. If the players says, "he is not my caddy", even though he carries the bag and gives advice, you don't really have any way to penalise, since you cannot reference the rule book/competition manually and claim otherwise.