Step/Jump Putt rule change?

[foxdawg10]

To me the step putt seems so opposite, mechanics wise, to how an effective stroke putting should be. It seems to throw the body out of balance if every part of the body is moving forward, and it is difficult for me to generate any power from the lower body this way. Can any one who successfully step putts explain how this all works? Maybe i just doing it wrong, lol.

I know this post doesn't address the rules aspect of the post, but I just don't understand the benefit of a step putt to begin with.

 

[foxdawg10]

A quarter or more of all step putts on tour violate the rules? Man, you'd think we'd see hundreds of still photos proving this. I've seen a handful, like the one you presented. That's one for sure. If it's true the rules are broken that often I'd like to see them all lined up in photo evidence, one after another.

I wouldn't be opposed to having actual referees following the top three cards at big tour events who are tasked at watching and calling foot faults and whatnot. The sport is getting big enough to where we could do that.

I would be opposed to changing the rules on this. I love watching James Conrad putt from outside C1. I love doing it myself in MA-40!

Conrad is fun to watch. On my long putts, my back leg comes forward, but it is long after the disc has left my hand, more like a traditional follow through on a throwing motion.

 

[dmoore1998]

A quarter or more of all step putts on tour violate the rules? Man, you'd think we'd see hundreds of still photos proving this. I've seen a handful, like the one you presented. That's one for sure. If it's true the rules are broken that often I'd like to see them all lined up in photo evidence, one after another.

I wouldn't be opposed to having actual referees following the top three cards at big tour events who are tasked at watching and calling foot faults and whatnot. The sport is getting big enough to where we could do that.

I would be opposed to changing the rules on this. I love watching James Conrad putt from outside C1. I love doing it myself in MA-40!

I'm not saying I agree on 25% being violations...but I'm not sure you'd see hundreds of still photos. Look at the 30 second rule and how often it is violated and you don't see hundreds of video clips lined up because people are up in arms. There are just some rules people don't care about (I say "some", but it's probably most, frankly).

 

[rhatton1]

The freeze-frames show a release that is, what, a tenth of a second late?

If they even show that. For a lot the camera probably deceives. I suspect (without checking at all) that the one pictured earlier in this thread (post #351) was no where near as bad as it looks, if even illegal as the freeze frame makes it look.

The hand could easily have already released the disc in that picture but we can't tell, all we can see is it is alongside the hand. If the wrist has been at all cocked the disc will be behind the hand at release not alongside it and that snaphsot could well be taken milliseconds after contact has broken, long enough for the foot to be off the ground. I'd be interested to see the original footage as the image definitely looks that way to me but I could well be very wrong.

The only time I have really seen step putts actually break rules has been on uphill lies where the front foot contacts ground earlier than expected because of the terrain. On flatground if it is illegal it is not an optimally timed shot. Same goes for jump putts. Disc should be released before contact with the ground is broken to generate the most power and accuracy. Yes people will mess up but the good putts are IME legal (tested lots out on camera myself in the past to analyse it)

More dynamic shots are more exciting and more fun to both watch and play for me. Anything to get rid of them is IMO a regressive step.

 

[rhatton1]

To me the step putt seems so opposite, mechanics wise, to how an effective stroke putting should be. It seems to throw the body out of balance if every part of the body is moving forward, and it is difficult for me to generate any power from the lower body this way. Can any one who successfully step putts explain how this all works? Maybe i just doing it wrong, lol.

I know this post doesn't address the rules aspect of the post, but I just don't understand the benefit of a step putt to begin with.

I don't actually use it but did experiment with it a couple of years ago, it takes your momentum and keeps it perfectly on line so is very effective at controlled laser line shots. It surprised me how effective but I've got a good jump putt already so never practised enough to incorporate it in the game.

 

[robdeforge]

A quarter or more of all step putts on tour violate the rules? Man, you'd think we'd see hundreds of still photos proving this. I've seen a handful, like the one you presented. That's one for sure. If it's true the rules are broken that often I'd like to see them all lined up in photo evidence, one after another.

 

[DG_player]

Who cares if KJ's feet are a couple inches off the ground when he drains a massive 90 foot jumper, etc., etc.? Big jumpers/steppers are one of the more exciting things to watch in coverage.

We should probably make everything stand and deliver so it can be as boring as can be.

 

[dmoore1998]

Who cares if KJ's feet are a couple inches off the ground when he drains a massive 90 foot jumper, etc., etc.? Big jumpers/steppers are one of the more exciting things to watch in coverage.

We should probably make everything stand and deliver so it can be as boring as can be.

Yeah, who cares if people cheat as long as it looks cool!

 

[rhatton1]

Challenge to anyone who thinks it's cheating.

Try it yourself.

See if you putt better whilst releasing the disc with contact on the ground or foot of the ground.

Some technically poor putts which break the rules will go in, that's life. To putt in either style technically well the putt will be legal.

Stop looking for the few cases that prove your point rather than the majority that don't.

 

[Steve West]

...
Stop looking for the few cases that prove your point rather than the majority that don't.

Uh, wait a minute. If there are a few cases that prove a point, the point is proven.

 

[Rastnav]

IMO, the rule as written works fine for what we actually (should) care about.

We want people to take the concept of a supporting point on the lie during the throw seriously. I don't think that technical perfection on this point is all that important, as we are really just looking to create a level playing field where there isn't intentional violations of contact with the lie to gain advantage. Imagine if the rule was "touch the lie during the throw and then release the disc before making contact with the ground past the lie". We'd be having the same kind of debate, with still photographs, but the concentration would be on whether a foot touched the ground before release.

Then the proposal would be to change to the current rule.

The circle only exists to make sure that the extension past the lie doesn't comprise a significant part of the distance to the basket. Making a 33 footer into a 28 footer via a step putt doesn't matter nearly as much as turning a 15 footer into a 10 footer.

 

[rhatton1]

Uh, wait a minute. If there are a few cases that prove a point, the point is proven.

Depends on the point Steve? There are people repeatedly in this thread saying Jump putts are cheating. That is the point I am arguing. They are provably not.

"Are all jump putts illegal."

No

"Are the majority of jump putts illegal"

No


"Have you found some to prove your flawed argument that jump putts are cheating?"

Yes


Stop banging on about the few outliers. Rules don't need to change for outliers. There are too many da**ed instances of Disc Golf rules being written for the few rather than the majority.

The stupid bit with this is they aren't even cheating, they are not getting a competitive advantage by jump putting illegally because by jump putting illegally they are also jump putting with a technically inferior action to the one they have intended (talking at the top level of play here, who knows what the lower divisions do...) . If they break the rules as already written it's a mistake not an intentional thing. Ergo not cheating. Ergo point not proved if the point is all jump putting is cheating (yes I am arguing that cheating has to be intentional, otherwise it's just breaking the rules which is not the same thing) .

 

[BillFleming]

I think the issue with step/jump putting is similar to the 30 second rule.

1. violations aren't being called
2. it is difficult to determine if the rule is violated
3. why have a rule that is almost impossible to determine if an action is a violation or not. Slo-mo videos shouldn't be needed to determine if a step/jump putt is legal or not....but how do you tell otherwise? A stopwatch shouldn't be required for 30 second rule, but how else can you tell if too much time is taken? And the group would have to be watching the player and stopwatch.

Can't get rid of the rule as it is otherwise everyone would just step/jump closer and release without a support being behind the marker at the moment of release. The only other options are to ignore the rule unless the violation is 100% blatant or change the rule to not allow it. The answer seems to be the first part....just ignore it unless it is 100% blatant. Which is like a bunch of other rules....players turning their backs to the putter, timing.......

 

[Ahildy13]

It's really, really, really easy to get rid of step putts without getting rid of follow through on other fairway shots. require that both feet be no closer to the target than the back of the mini marker when the shot is released. getting rid of jump putts not so much but bad step putts are harder to call than bad jump putts IMO and it's smart not to let perfect be the enemy of good

No more falling then during scrambles?
Or forehands...

Most players have their back foot past the mini after release

 

[robdeforge]

"Are the majority of jump putts illegal"

No.

If this is true I'd like to see them all lined up in photo evidence, one after another.

No more falling then during scrambles?
Or forehands...

Most players have their back foot past the mini after release

maybe I didn't explain my potential rule well enough? this is what I wrote previously:

If the lie has been marked by a marker disc, then when the disc is released, the player must:
Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,
Have no supporting point closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
Have no feet closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
Have all supporting points in-bounds.

seems like both of those situations you described the disc is released before #3 is a problem, if I'm understanding what you're saying

 

[dmoore1998]

Depends on the point Steve? There are people repeatedly in this thread saying Jump putts are cheating. That is the point I am arguing. They are provably not.

"Are all jump putts illegal."

No

"Are the majority of jump putts illegal"

No


"Have you found some to prove your flawed argument that jump putts are cheating?"

Yes


Stop banging on about the few outliers. Rules don't need to change for outliers. There are too many da**ed instances of Disc Golf rules being written for the few rather than the majority.

The stupid bit with this is they aren't even cheating, they are not getting a competitive advantage by jump putting illegally because by jump putting illegally they are also jump putting with a technically inferior action to the one they have intended (talking at the top level of play here, who knows what the lower divisions do...) . If they break the rules as already written it's a mistake not an intentional thing. Ergo not cheating. Ergo point not proved if the point is all jump putting is cheating (yes I am arguing that cheating has to be intentional, otherwise it's just breaking the rules which is not the same thing) .

So since some of this happened immediately after I used the word "cheating", I'll respond (and if it wasn't directed at me, then it won't be relevant anyways).

I didn't say jump putts were cheating, or illegal. I used the word cheating to specifically reply to a post that said we shouldn't care if someone had both feet off the ground (illegal) because making those kinds of putts are very exciting to watch.

It seems more than silly to me to argue we shouldn't enforce rules because something is exciting or looks cool. If you want that particular part of the game to occur, simply make it legal then.

 

[dmoore1998]

Challenge to anyone who thinks it's cheating.

Try it yourself.

See if you putt better whilst releasing the disc with contact on the ground or foot of the ground.

Some technically poor putts which break the rules will go in, that's life. To putt in either style technically well the putt will be legal.

Stop looking for the few cases that prove your point rather than the majority that don't.

Actually, just did a quick search, who used the word cheating besides me lately? And that was in reference to a situation specifically describing something illegal...not just "all jump or step putts".

 

[rhatton1]

Actually, just did a quick search, who used the word cheating besides me lately? And that was in reference to a situation specifically describing something illegal...not just "all jump or step putts".

Within the thread it has been said many times going back to the start. I actually nearly responded to a Jay Dub comment from a year ago yesterday but then decided it was a bit of a necrobump.

 

[dmoore1998]

Within the thread it has been said many times going back to the start. I actually nearly responded to a Jay Dub comment from a year ago yesterday but then decided it was a bit of a necrobump.

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. I looked over the entire thread, but then thought it unlikely you meant that long ago, but figured I'd hedge my bets with the word "lately" lol.

 

[coupe]

Uh, wait a minute. If there are a few cases that prove a point, the point is proven.

De minimis no curat lex.

The issue isn't whether or not any violations occur; it's whether they're occuring frequently enough to warrant re-writing one or more rules to prohibit (or allow) ALL step/jump putts, irrespective of how far or how close one's lie is to the target.