Stop asking if you are outside the circle!

[wolfhaley]

Hey, can I jump this?

 

[Karl]

JW92,
Think of it this way: if player A doesn't want to "be involved" in the determination of if player B is 'in or out', (it ends up that he was 'in'), and B aggregously steps/falls over, is called on it by player C, how can A - in good faith, and correctly - second the call? There may be a case there for a courtesy violation called on A (by C, D, et al) for abdication of some part(s) of 801.02A-D
Karl

 

[philstine]

No, that's simply not true. I am required to observe my card mates and make sure the rules of the game are followed. There is a huge difference between picking a good spot where a disc went out of bounds, and reassuring my opponent that they may or may not be outside C1. If you don't have a good way to determine where 10m is, you just shouldn't step putt.

I suggest you read the Competition Manual, which in the Introduction specifically mandates that "the procedures and guidelines contained therein are required for all PDGA events," paying particular attention to The Spirit of the Game, which mandates:

The Spirit of the Game

Disc golf is typically played without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the player to show sportsmanship, integrity, consideration for other players, and to abide by the Official Rules of Disc Golf. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be.

If you can't be bothered to show sportsmanship, integrity, and consideriation for other player, you just shouldn't register for PDGA events.

 

[Jwalker92]

I suggest you read the Competition Manual, which in the Introduction specifically mandates that "the procedures and guidelines contained therein are required for all PDGA events," paying particular attention to The Spirit of the Game, which mandates:



If you can't be bothered to show sportsmanship, integrity, and consideriation for other player, you just shouldn't register for PDGA events.

There is nothing unsportsmanlike about telling someone to "walk it off." My eyes are not a range finder or measuring tape. If you think it's close, you should have a good way to determine if you are in our out. Also, if you are well beyond C1, 45'+, it's just not necessary to ask every other hole.

 

[foxdawg10]

There is nothing unsportsmanlike about telling someone to "walk it off." My eyes are not a range finder or measuring tape. If you think it's close, you should have a good way to determine if you are in our out. Also, if you are well beyond C1, 45'+, it's just not necessary to ask every other hole.

I would disagree. Better to acknowledge he is outside the circle before hand. just my 2 cents

 

[autocrosscrx]

I don't mind people asking at all.

What annoys me is people will be like 18 feet out and I'm like, "bro, that is like 18 feet tops" and everyone else on the car is like "circle 2".

It does however help me understand all their tales of draining 100 foot putts.

 

[Improbably]

You will find out if I call you on it. . .

 

[dndelli]

There is nothing unsportsmanlike about telling someone to "walk it off." My eyes are not a range finder or measuring tape. If you think it's close, you should have a good way to determine if you are in our out. Also, if you are well beyond C1, 45'+, it's just not necessary to ask every other hole.

I completely agree that there is nothing unsportsmanlike about telling someone to walk it off, when they ask the question. I just think the contrary is true too: there is nothing unsportsmanlike about asking the question. Their response to your answer might reflect unsportsmanlike behavior, like what it seemed happened in your story discussed in your original post. I think that seems like would fairly be worthy of at least a courtesy warning.

Just tell them to step it off to make them use their energy to confirm the distance, maybe warning them a 30s time penalty is possible if they have a putting routine as well .

To be fair, according to the PDGA 802.03.A.2 a player has "a reasonable amount of time to arrive at and determine the lie" before the 30s clock starts. If someone asks the question before approaching their lie, and they are told to step it off. I feel like it would arguable that stepping it off (if done with relative pace) would still constitute as a reasonable determination of their lie. Again, this is why I think being able to answer a simple question is fine for trying to keep up pace of play.

However, good sportsmanship dictates that you should not hide or lie about information that may lead to a penalty. Certainly, if they ask in/out you should give them your honest appraisal of whether you would call a stance violation if they jump- or step-putted from their marker.

Honestly, this is my view on the matter. Again, as long as the person who asks the question is ready to accept that their card might deem them inside the circle. If they throw a hissy fit over the answer, I would likely give them a warning and mention they might just want to walk off their lie the next time. Of all the tantrums and unsportsmanlike behavior I've encountered during both tournament rounds and practice rounds, being asked if someone is outside the circle doesn't seem like a big deal.

 

[ChrisWoj]

My default answer is No. If you have to ask me, then you think you might be in C1. I'm not accurate at visually measuring distances and I don't carry a rangefinder.

I think your default answer should be "I don't know." Because, by your own admission, you don't know.

Personally - I ask my card in order to pre-empt any possible debate over a rules violation. I will never ever ask the group if I think I am inside of the circle. But if I'm outside of the circle and near the edge I will ask the group and if I don't have a clear immediate majority I will step the putt off. If I still don't have a clear majority after I've stepped it out as past 10m I will immediately shutter any debate among the card mates and get over my lie to putt and take a standstill putt.

In any case - there won't be any argument on my card regarding whether or not I violated the rules on the jumper. Pace of play will be maintained, no one gets butt-hurt over someone disagreeing with them, and frankly I don't practice jumpers until 11m for exactly this reason (or at least, that'd be the case if I practiced putting this year, since returning to jumpers - thats how I used to do it).

 

[ChrisWoj]

I love when someone is about 45 feet out and asks "am I in or out?" I love it!
I also love when someone is at 28-30 feet and they ask if they are in or out and I say "in" and they get mad. I love it!

There's a local player in Toledo, a certain veteran Am Masters player who used to be a 990+ guy, who asks on half his putt from 30-45. I love it because every time he asks, he misses. And he's an absolutely deadly jump putter.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

I begin with a story. Lead card, final round, scores were tight. A player who is notoriously problematic asks if he is outside the circle for a jump putt or not. He was right at the circle's edge, no tassels in the ground.

I think the biggest problem is this player is habitually making tournaments less fun or even miserable for others. One of the biggest reasons I rarely player tournaments is because I always somehow get stuck with a certain player with the initials J.D. Not sure if that's who you are talking about, but I'm guessing you know who I am talking about.

 

[HB2017]

All you have to say is "in" or "out". You are not required to defend your answer and you shouldn't even if you want to. If he was bitching afterward your options are to ignore him or tell him to shut his pie-hole and stop dragging the card down.

 

[Moose33]

I don't step/jump putt and never attempt to, I will sometimes tell the card that I'm out and make them confirm it if footing is bad and I might fall.

 

[Hampstead]

Is this post outside the circle?

 

[HyooMac]

I might begin carrying a measuring tape for tournaments. That way, if I'm asked, I could just hold it up and ask: "Do you want to measure it?"

On one hand, somebody might gladly take the tape and thank me. But I wonder if the effect would be to cut down the asking....

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Ask me 18 times if you're in the circle. Fine with me, it's either definitely yes/no or go ahead and pace it off. Whatever, I'm not at work, and I think I hear a wood warbler on its way back to South America; what a beautiful day to be alive doing my favorite thing ever. You like to jump putt legally? Cool, so do I! It's fun! You're better standing still in C2 and would rather not step past your lie legally after releasing your Holy Projectile? Cool, this is a literal example of "different strokes for different folks," hope you nail it your way! Isn't this the greatest projectile sport in the history of humankind? ...

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

I often do a step putt to layup. Not necessarily to get the disc in the basket. Sometimes miraculously, it does go in. But 90% of the time, I'm just trying to get close without yanking the final approach.

Because so many people do hate the step putt, I do ask if I think I'm close to C1. If just one card mate thinks I might be inside the circle, I do a regular putt.

Not mad they didn't give me a green light. Indeed, I am delighted to know in advance they thought I was inside.

No one has ever asked me to walk it off, and I wouldn't anyway. Probably would be further debate about if I've done the walk-off correctly. Why bother with that, I tell myself. I then just do a regular putt.

If the disc goes in from this longish distance (step or regular putt), it's gravy in my book.

 

[Golden Tuna]

Jump/step putting is not my thing... I find the more mechanics that are involved, the higher probability something could go wrong and cause a miss.

I don't mind if my card mates ask. That said, but I'm not sure the opinion of other players should be relevant in this matter. I mean it's pretty hard to distinguish 32' from 35' at a glance, especially with uneven terrain...

Additionally, some players are tall (Gannon Buhr), some are short (Emerson Keith). Their steps are NOT the same length. If I were re-writing the rules, I'd suggest removing C1 and allowing jump/steps from outside C2 (after the distance has been confirmed by rangefinder).

I say this because it is the only way (I know) to objectively validate the distance and alleviate the silliness outlined in the OP.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Jump/step putting is not my thing... I find the more mechanics that are involved, the higher probability something could go wrong and cause a miss.

I would say that I jump putt for the same reason you don't jump putt. The additional weight shift allows me to use a shorter motion, it moves a lot of the work from the smaller more error prone arm to the larger more consistent muscles in the legs.

Additionally, some players are tall (Gannon Buhr), some are short (Emerson Keith). Their steps are NOT the same length.

I would say that, almost regardless of height (barring being simply *too small* for a 1m stride to feel comfortable at all), the most common error is steps that are too long. Sometimes a player I'm on a card with will take steps that are clearly well above 1m, and then just bemoan "Just inside, damn," before proceeding to putt standstill. I just watch unless they turn around after taking long strides and actually ask if they're inside/outside because it was close.

And I'll almost always let them know that their stride is off, if they do ask about being inside/outside. I don't think most believe me. lol.

I remember one time spectating USDGC, in 2007, before C1 was marked. I went to watch Geoff Bennett's card for a bit before heading over to see Climo play final round. Either Jesper Lundmark or Timo Pursio (whomever is taller) had strides a mile long, and was asking his card for judgments on 40' putts that he stepped off to 10 with just enormous strides.

 

[Dcinmd]

If you can't be bothered to show sportsmanship, integrity, and consideriation for other player, you just shouldn't register for PDGA events.

Is it sportsman like to blame one's failures on the entire card?