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Check out Brad Schick and his straight or stiff arm technique, the disc is not coming in close to his body at all during the swing and he is not rounding(disc trapped behind left shoulder) as he keeps the disc wide and upper arm wide away from the chest/shoulder(not collapsing the shoulder joint less than 90). He barely bends the arm during the swing, it's just a tight spring that get loaded and unloaded. Like a door stopper spring.
This is obviously not a max distance technique, but quite efficient and effective using the body to lever the arm like a golf club.
Also note how he uses his left arm/hand on the rear thigh like Marc Jarvis to push/leverage forward.
That could be what my swing looks like? Prior to Disc golf, I played 20 plus years of ball golf with more than half that tournament play. I'm LHBH, and my left arm does feel like its stiff going back and I don't rotate all the way back. Then coming forward until just a little past the body, at that point the arm whipping out until release point. I can actually see most of my swing, knowing my arm is away from the body. I'm sure the stiff arm is a result from the ball golf swing that I had developed over the years.
I've been told by two others as I was playing thru on the tee, that I had snap in my swing. One remarking he had never seen it in a lefty. Don't think I'm seeing that with Brad?
I've seen several of your videos on how the disc golf and ball golf swings are related, and I agree. A few nights ago I was watching a few of your videos, and I was paying attention to follow thru, which I had been struggling. The results of the past few days have been very positive. Thank you for posting!
I may have unintentionally thrown like this in the past when trying to keep things wide and avoid rounding. One throw in particular stood out: threw a DX Eagle on a low frozen rope farther than I had ever thrown it before. It didn't feel like it took much effort, but also it didn't feel "right" if that makes sense.
Brad is our local pro/hero. I had one lesson with him earlier this year. I've always noticed how he holds the disc before and during the reach-back being a little different that some of the other pros. I think Paul Ullibarri has a similar reach-back. The straight arm release is not something he emphasized in the lesson I had (there were much, MUCH bigger fish to fry with my "form"), but I might ask about it if I have a follow-up.
Brad has been around a long time (PDGA# < 8,000), and by his own admission plays "boring golf" by trying to stay in the fairway. It works well for him, he usually cashes....
Check out Brad Schick and his straight or stiff arm technique, the disc is not coming in close to his body at all during the swing and he is not rounding(disc trapped behind left shoulder) as he keeps the disc wide and upper arm wide away from the chest/shoulder(not collapsing the shoulder joint less than 90). He barely bends the arm during the swing, it's just a tight spring that get loaded and unloaded. Like a door stopper spring.
This is obviously not a max distance technique, but quite efficient and effective using the body to lever the arm like a golf club.
Also note how he uses his left arm/hand on the rear thigh like Marc Jarvis to push/leverage forward.
Does the body get in this about 60-degree elbow-pointing forward position while throwing something heavy like a hammer? (references to the picture of Eagle.)
I've learned so much by imagining the arm being like a heavy thing that I'm throwing it has worked wonders, but I can still see that my elbow is more like right up and down and is not pointing much forward at all before my lower arm swings out. Curious if throwing heavy objects the elbow will naturally want to get more forward
Discgolferguy, apologies for the relocation - moved from Repository of Cool Images to keep that thread focused more on images. I also thought you might like the content at the top of the current thread.
I usually think of it as a difference in terms of the difference in the end of the end lever length (e.g., golf club vs. disc) and the mass/inertia of the lever (heavy hammer no matter the length vs. disc). Notice that the lever sequence of each player's body also differs. Those and other details of how the form recruits and transmits forces through the chain explain what's different between GG and Eagle.
Think also that you are swinging & redirecting the hand & disc "unit" like a club attached to the end of your arm. Many people try to swing/throw/pull their arm too flat like a gate hinge with the associated posture and end up with weaker force chains.
Different instructors emphasize different components of this part of the move or talk about distinct actions. Some of them are probably fuzzy semantics or verbal distinctions without mechanical differences. Others are not and are mutually exclusive actions.
Making sure your overall body is moving well and shifting together as a unit so you can swing/pull/throw with the arm helps prevent you from micromanaging the arm in ways that can backfire for your form. That is part of the answer to your arm angle question. Mileage varies.
Sometimes the arm itself needs direct intervention and help. For me swinging and throwing with hammers (from tack hammers to sledgehammers) helped initially get my arm more on plane in general with my body and helped stop me from destroying my shoulder. But I still needed to improve how to get transfer to the disc and learn to generate most of the power from the ground and momentum to overcome various classic "strongarming" problems. 100% of the time, when my legs are working better to support my posture my arm behaves better with easier and more powerful swings in general. When legs and momentum and posture fail, the arm is more prone to fail in one way or another.
Play with natural learning aids that help you swing loose and for the most power for your body. I agree with people who think getting a whole-body intuition for a "full body swing" is helpful.
I've been thinking about this lately. Idk if stuff arm means less distance. Especially since I've been seeing a lot of Calvin lately and young bomber Carter Ahrens. I've been seeing a lot of bent arm back swings with some young guns.
This is almost a straight arm throw too. She says she pulls straight through but it doesn't look that way.
She says she gets 300 feet from that, which is not huge, but also not bad from a beginner.
It seems to me that a straight arm might do two things. One is that of course the larger radius the faster the linear speed at a given rotation, if you have sufficient torque to achieve that rotation. (W=T*I and "I" increases with the radius) The other might be timing the throw so the arm comes straight at the hit. Thinking out loud, sorry. And maybe reduce OAT.
l think I tried the stiff arm when I couldn't throw 200 with an Archangel and it kinda worked. More so by putting things on anhyzer and nose more level than actual power? Bent arm backswing sounds like it could simplify things a bit though.
Dunno, spent a whole session working more on legs and getting the weight off that back leg and into the front one before throwing. Fundamental stuff
l think I tried the stiff arm when I couldn't throw 200 with an Archangel and it kinda worked. More so by putting things on anhyzer and nose more level than actual power? Bent arm backswing sounds like it could simplify things a bit though.
Dunno, spent a whole session working more on legs and getting the weight off that back leg and into the front one before throwing. Fundamental stuff
I found that getting it closer to Feldberg's move or swinging a golf club helped get my wrist tension in better order before I moved back to the bent elbow style.
This is almost a straight arm throw too. She says she pulls straight through but it doesn't look that way.
She says she gets 300 feet from that, which is not huge, but also not bad from a beginner.
It seems to me that a straight arm might do two things. One is that of course the larger radius the faster the linear speed at a given rotation, if you have sufficient torque to achieve that rotation. (W=T*I and "I" increases with the radius) The other might be timing the throw so the arm comes straight at the hit. Thinking out loud, sorry. And maybe reduce OAT.
I found that getting it closer to Feldberg's move or swinging a golf club helped get my wrist tension in better order before I moved back to the bent elbow style.
This is almost a straight arm throw too. She says she pulls straight through but it doesn't look that way.
She says she gets 300 feet from that, which is not huge, but also not bad from a beginner.
It seems to me that a straight arm might do two things. One is that of course the larger radius the faster the linear speed at a given rotation, if you have sufficient torque to achieve that rotation. (W=T*I and "I" increases with the radius) The other might be timing the throw so the arm comes straight at the hit. Thinking out loud, sorry. And maybe reduce OAT.
Just saw some Kristin Tattar highlights and her form looks similar. Basically a straight arm pump and what I would call a more horizontal backswing (like Schultz, Oakley), but then even if you're trying to maintain straight arm through the hit, your arm will inevitably bend if you're "pulling"/ bringing disc in close to chest on forward swing. I practiced this on short course the other day and think it's good simple form. Easy to feel the momentum of the disc,(call it windmill, pendulum whatever) and easy on the body it seems (I did see comment that Tattar had elbow surgery so there's that but I didn't notice any jarring on mine on short round.) Maybe attempt to keep arm straight while pulling in center helps?
Just saw some Kristin Tattar highlights and her form looks similar. Basically a straight arm pump and what I would call a more horizontal backswing (like Schultz, Oakley), but then even if you're trying to maintain straight arm through the hit, your arm will inevitably bend if you're "pulling"/ bringing disc in close to chest on forward swing. I practiced this on short course the other day and think it's good simple form. Easy to feel the momentum of the disc,(call it windmill, pendulum whatever) and easy on the body it seems (I did see comment that Tattar had elbow surgery so there's that but I didn't notice any jarring on mine on short round.) Maybe attempt to keep arm straight while pulling in center helps?
Yep, I think figuring out the right amount & kind of tension getting pulled taut is tricky and different tools seem to get people to do it different ways. As a classic "strong armer," letting very heavy objects pull me taut in the backswing straighter armed and not allowing the tension to dissipate helped me achieve the more natural dynamic you're describing, including the elbow bend into the pocket. Hammers helped me relax and allow the swing to more naturally coil back without micromanaging the peak of the backswing and improving the leverage from the rear side, which kinda has started to work itself out in real throws... YMMV.
Also, to clarify my speculation about Kristin's elbow, it was more about the combination of the side shuffle hop and how her posture might bring her through a position that puts a little more jerk stress on the elbow than you'd like to have due to the lesser spacing moving through the pocket. Probably not a coincidence that her rhythm is interesting - she actually accelerates quicker than most FPO/tempo goes up rapidly once she lands out of her hop in the plant. This effect is perhaps due to the way she doesn't get a full X: she's probably relying a lot on vertical and horizontal force compressed hard against the ground, but gets a little less on torque force against the ground moving foot to foot than e.g., Pierce.
But I think the lesser East-West space due to Kristin's move also might tend to put a little more North-South stress on the body, and perhaps peaking in the elbow when it's uncoiling in her pattern leading forward. Just something I've had an eye on. Also notice how Paul and Paige both allow their pump to remain straighter moving forward, countering the movement of the rear leg and helping create that swing space. I still wonder if Kristin had tried an X-hop at some point or a more straight-armed forward pump and ruled it out for one reason or another. E.g., it looks like her hips move differently than Paige's, and her legs look very strong but stockier to me.
I haven't really encountered many body health reason to worry about straighter arms in particular, and there's even some thinking that straighter arm techniques have less risk of shoulder impingement (which I've personally noticed too). Once I started to get the mapping between heavy backswings and e.g. Wiggins backswing I never really looked back. If figured if it can handle a repeatable 85mph without destroying his arm or shoulder there might be something to it.
Yep, I think figuring out the right amount & kind of tension getting pulled taut is tricky and different tools seem to get people to do it different ways. As a classic "strong armer," letting very heavy objects pull me taut in the backswing straighter armed and not allowing the tension to dissipate helped me achieve the more natural dynamic you're describing, including the elbow bend into the pocket. Hammers helped me relax and allow the swing to more naturally coil back without micromanaging the peak of the backswing and improving the leverage from the rear side, which kinda has started to work itself out in real throws... YMMV.
Also, to clarify my speculation about Kristin's elbow, it was more about the combination of the side shuffle hop and how her posture might bring her through a position that puts a little more jerk stress on the elbow than you'd like to have due to the lesser spacing moving through the pocket. Probably not a coincidence that her rhythm is interesting - she actually accelerates quicker than most FPO/tempo goes up rapidly once she lands out of her hop in the plant. This effect is perhaps due to the way she doesn't get a full X: she's probably relying a lot on vertical and horizontal force compressed hard against the ground, but gets a little less on torque force against the ground moving foot to foot than e.g., Pierce.
But I think the lesser East-West space due to Kristin's move also might tend to put a little more North-South stress on the body, and perhaps peaking in the elbow when it's uncoiling in her pattern leading forward. Just something I've had an eye on. Also notice how Paul and Paige both allow their pump to remain straighter moving forward, countering the movement of the rear leg and helping create that swing space. I still wonder if Kristin had tried an X-hop at some point or a more straight-armed forward pump and ruled it out for one reason or another. E.g., it looks like her hips move differently than Paige's, and her legs look very strong but stockier to me.
I haven't really encountered many body health reason to worry about straighter arms in particular, and there's even some thinking that straighter arm techniques have less risk of shoulder impingement (which I've personally noticed too). Once I started to get the mapping between heavy backswings and e.g. Wiggins backswing I never really looked back. If figured if it can handle a repeatable 85mph without destroying his arm or shoulder there might be something to it.
Thanks for clarification on the side hop x distinction. Yes, rhythm is a bit wonky.
Interesting that she forward pumps with more of a bent elbow than Paul and Paige. Now that I watch her form again, maybe she has less of a straight arm than I originally thought. Was thinking she was more similar to girl in video Timmy B linked. Nevertheless, she uses the momentum well and think one could combine aspects of her form with beginner in that video and do pretty well.
Funny, in my mind for whatever reason I tend to think of straight arms as those that go more east and west on the tee pad but I see what you mean with Wiggins.
And yes, I have tried both bent arm and straight and, IME, the straight arm is easier on my 42 year old body. I would think more likely to hyper extend elbow with bent arm... I felt I was in danger of this when trying to replicate
Just saw some Kristin Tattar highlights and her form looks similar. Basically a straight arm pump and what I would call a more horizontal backswing (like Schultz, Oakley), but then even if you're trying to maintain straight arm through the hit, your arm will inevitably bend if you're "pulling"/ bringing disc in close to chest on forward swing.
Looking at the swing I shared I notice there are two separate things happening.
One is throwing with a straighter arm.
But the other is rotating with a mostly vertical torso and keeping the arm mostly on that flat plane. That's very different from some pro players that are leaned forward 30 - 45 degrees.
Thanks for clarification on the side hop x distinction. Yes, rhythm is a bit wonky.
Interesting that she forward pumps with more of a bent elbow than Paul and Paige. Now that I watch her form again, maybe she has less of a straight arm than I originally thought. Was thinking she was more similar to girl in video Timmy B linked. Nevertheless, she uses the momentum well and think one could combine aspects of her form with beginner in that video and do pretty well.
Funny, in my mind for whatever reason I tend to think of straight arms as those that go more east and west on the tee pad but I see what you mean with Wiggins.
And yes, I have tried both bent arm and straight and, IME, the straight arm is easier on my 42 year old body. I would think more likely to hyper extend elbow with bent arm... I felt I was in danger of this when trying to replicate
Yeah, I think each move can be effective, just with interesting potential tradeoffs. In some ways I have learned more from watching KT than a lot of male players, including some of the distinctive features.
Re: East-west movement and straight arms: Something to keep in mind is the relationships between the side bend and the arm pattern out of the backswing. Eagle has a more "vertical" backswing but is one of the most "horizontal" throwers on tour. Keep in mind how the shoulder plane changes as a function of side bend and how deep the stance is.
Also important to distinguish whether the player is getting pulled taut horizontal more directly away from the target like Eagle with the shift, or if there's more vertical shift to understand what explains superficial differences in players. I use more vertical than Eagle, but the shift direction dictates a lot of where the disc goes & relative "spray" error potential.
Looking at the swing I shared I notice there are two separate things happening.
One is throwing with a straighter arm.
But the other is rotating with a mostly vertical torso and keeping the arm mostly on that flat plane. That's very different from some pro players that are leaned forward 30 - 45 degrees.
She's really interesting. KT's plane & side bend does tend to be on the shallow side - she tends to like 15-20 degrees with commensurate spine angle and posture when carving up gaps.
2nd is "flatter" in terms of plane of play, though notice the angle between her upper arm and spine, and upper and lower body remains intact, and accounts for the difference in where her body goes in follow through compared to the first shot (more toward 90 degrees as a function of her tilted axis swinging on a "flatter" plane of play):
See how she uses compression against the ground to get that nasty drive acceleration from the plant leg & how her elbow follows her posture:
I said there were two things I noticed - straight arm and upright/vertical swing axis.
Now there's a third, and it's something that's been confusing me. I might be overthinking this, but....
A straight arm affects how long you can hold your hand on the outside of the disc.
If your arm is at 90, your hand is outside only at full reachback. If at 135, never (unless you're flexible enough to reach back past square, or you do some shoulder rotation manipulation).
That implies that rotation 1 is continuous from start of forward swing for straight arm, but is delayed until power pocket for bent arm. I don't know the right terms so I'm calling rotation 1 disc motion while fully in the grip, and rotation 2 the disc motion as it comes out of the hand finger by finger.
It might be that straight arm throwers have to do more external rotation and supination later in the swing to get the disc on plane.
Most of the discussion here is on macro body mechanics, and that's still all I work on as a beginner, but I'm curious about the arm hand stuff too.
