Strength/Hypertrophy Training and Disc Golf Performance

[sidewinder22]

Distance is not primarily about strength. Why are most of the long distance throwing pros tall and lanky? They are more flexible and able to build up more potential energy/torque and have longer to accelerate. You obviously need to have some strength, but focus to improve would be addressing core strength and ballistic training (speed/acceleration). If you are getting muscle bound by increasing muscle mass you will generally decrease in flexibility. Just the thoughts off the top of my head.

Mechanical advantage or Ape-index is very real, now if only we could grow longer limbs. :\

As the shortest swimmer 5'7" to qualify for the US Open I had superior technique and was also the strongest pound for pound to make up for that lack of distance per stroke per(and drag) advantage all those Phelps type orangutans had on me. I never lost flexibility. People in the weight room always assumed I was a linebacker rather than a swimmer.

Christian Sandstrom on the left - former distance record holder and went a decade undefeated in distance competition.

 

[sidewinder22]

With Koepka losing weight, I wonder how much strength loss there was. Would it matter if there was some time to adjust to the lighter weight? Or was performance more optimal at the higher weight?

Force = Mass * Acceleration.
I think he would have to increase range of motion significantly to make up in acceleration what he lost in muscle mass.

 

[SaROCaM]

Mechanical advantage or Ape-index is very real, now if only we could grow longer limbs. :\

As the shortest swimmer 5'7" to qualify for the US Open I had superior technique and was also the strongest pound for pound to make up for that lack of distance per stroke per(and drag) advantage all those Phelps type orangutans had on me. I never lost flexibility. People in the weight room always assumed I was a linebacker rather than a swimmer.

Christian Sandstrom on the left - former distance record holder and went a decade undefeated in distance competition.

What was your weight at that time? Any idea of Sandstrom's weight at this competition? Looks like a physique contest with height classes.

 

[JedV]

Lol. I work in cardiology, and the term "hypertrophy" is not a good thing in that context. The thread title gave me the heebie jeebies.

 

[Moose33]

The past two years I've been doing fairly heavy weights and stabling up my legs has help me regain some oomph I lost when I tore my acl in 2017. Combined with the 30 lbs of fat I've lost this year I'm playing well, but still not quite back to my early 2017 peak. I did crank a FH that was only about 20 short of a slightly uphill 475 ft hole in a tournament Saturday, so that felt good.

 

[sidewinder22]

What was your weight at that time? Any idea of Sandstrom's weight at this competition? Looks like a physique contest with height classes.

I was 155lbs.

I'm just guessing Sandstrom is around 200lbs of pure beast. He did fitness competitions, not bodybuilding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ93xZrZ1ZY#t=2m28s

 

[SaROCaM]

I was 155lbs.

I'm just guessing Sandstrom is around 200lbs of pure beast. He did fitness competitions, not bodybuilding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ93xZrZ1ZY#t=2m28s

Dude looks like a strong safety there. No wonder he crushed drives. Technique plus all that physical condition.

 

[Disc Golf Doctor]

Force = Mass * Acceleration.
I think he would have to increase range of motion significantly to make up in acceleration what he lost in muscle mass.

Yes, but the mass you are accelerating is mainly the mass of the disc not your mass. And it is easier to accelerate your mass when there is less of it since acceleration = force/mass

 

[Timthenchant3r]

Strength obviously has a lot to do with it, otherwise the pro women would be throwing just as far as the men. They have great form to maximize their strength and anyone can maximize their current strength with great form, but to up your distance potential you have to get stronger too.

 

[wolfmandragon]

Pavel Tsatsouline(if you don't know who he is, do a deep dive on him. Maybe start here) makes the claim that all physical activities depend on strength first, even mobility. He also makes the claim that strength is a skill that must be trained as it has a large neurological component.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yes, but the mass you are accelerating is mainly the mass of the disc not your mass. And it is easier to accelerate your mass when there is less of it since acceleration = force/mass

You should be using your whole body mass/weightshift to catapult/transfer force to the disc. Gravity accelerates your mass and pendulum swing the same regardless of your mass, so force increases with mass.

 

[wolfmandragon]

You should be using your whole body mass/weightshift to catapult/transfer force to the disc. Gravity accelerates your mass and pendulum swing the same regardless of your mass, so force increases with mass.

I think how much mass helps is determinate on what form one uses. Swedish style should be more affected by mass than say bent arm.

Either way, one has to have enough strength to brace properly or the extra mass could be detrimental.

 

[SaROCaM]

Pavel Tsatsouline(if you don't know who he is, do a deep dive on him. Maybe start here) makes the claim that all physical activities depend on strength first, even mobility. He also makes the claim that strength is a skill that must be trained as it has a large neurological component.

Yeah I had read stuff by Pavel and Dan John among others. The importance of strength as a foundation makes sense to me. Also the idea that speed, agility, flexibility, mobility, power, and explosiveness are things that can be improved by getting stronger. I seem to remember an analogy of strength as a bucket, with all the other attributes fitting inside it. Increase the size of the bucket (strength) and you can hold more of everything else.

These are why I ended up focusing on strength first, and then filling in all the other things along the way or as needed. For example, when I joined someone who had been practicing yoga for a while, I was able to keep up because I had the general strength to hold the various poses, even if I was new to yoga.

As they say, "strength is never a weakness."

Though at a certain point, there has to be a shift in focus from strength to the expression/application of that strength. One thing that comes to mind is the continuum of absolute strength---absolute speed explained by Eric Cressey and others in baseball in particular.

 

[SonicGuy]

I think this thread's original topic was weight training bulk and gym strength vs usable disc golf power. There is clearly such a thing as disc golf strength, and it is clearly not always related to muscle mass.

Power comes from a variety of things, and as Sidewinder shows nearly every day probably the most important source of power is form.

 

[wolfmandragon]

See I also use a kettlebell (same size) and I get pretty much zero disc golf carry over. I do swings, clean jerk, and snatch. Nothing.

Hey, you are back.

It could be that the Kettlebell swings and snatches were strengthening the weak link in my chain. I had an auto accident a few years ago that still troubles my lower back. Before that, back in my gym rat days, I never did deadlifts or good mornings for fear of injuries. I overdid leg presses and barbell one arm snatches trying to make up for it. Didnt work.

 

[Horsman]

barbell one arm snatches trying to make up for it. Didnt work.

You did one arm barbell snatches?

 

[wolfmandragon]

You did one arm barbell snatches?

Olympic bar only, no plates. I tried 2.5 kilo plates, whilst I could do the extra 5 kilos, it was too dangerous if anyone was in my corner of the gym.

After my dojo closed (2001 Or 2002), no gyms in my area even knew what Kettlebells were. I was looking to recreate my martial arts exercises. I went to a body building gym at that time, so I was out of luck with anything offset weighted.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I think this thread's original topic was weight training bulk and gym strength vs usable disc golf power. There is clearly such a thing as disc golf strength, and it is clearly not always related to muscle mass.

Power comes from a variety of things, and as Sidewinder shows nearly every day probably the most important source of power is form.

Really this.
Good form relies on good range of motion. Good range of motion relies on flexibility. Flexibility does not HAVE to be reduced with increased muscle mass to a point, as SW pointed out, look at world class gymnasts, but often straight up throwing barbells around with out conscious effort into maintaining or increasing flexibility will hinder your DG throw.

my opinion based on other sports and what i've learned here on DG in ~order of importance to throwing well and also far
Balance
Coordination/Kinesthetic awareness
Flexibility
Strength

 

[wolfmandragon]

This subject has renewed my interest in building sport specific strength. I have been digging through articles and videos from several strength and/or athletic coaches. I had read instances of talk of using the overhead squat to build throwing distance. I found this article by Dan John... I can so see this working, especially for those of us whom sit at a desk all day.

I got to try this. Looks like I found my winter program.
http://danjohn.net/the-overhead-squat-article/

 

[Dire Wolfy]

Does speedskating count as crosstraining? Ive become a stronger thrower ever since i became a speedskater. We work all parts of the body during workouts, mainly core and legs, but it does help generate more power and torque through your x step ive learned.