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Talking bout stalking (stalkers post here)
- Thread starter topcide
- Start date
chiggins
Eagle Member
discspeed said:
So it's a Gazelle with a bit less fade? No kidding?
HeartlessCynic
* Ace Member *
Has anyone tried or even seen the reported 2010 PDGA disc (black ESP Stalker)?
optowesome
Par Member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2009
- Messages
- 169
My dad says I have a package waiting for me from PDGA. I am a new member. I will be picking it up friday and playing a round on Saturday. I will let you know how it flies.
booter
* Ace Member *
NoLifeLeft said:
my esp stalker will be coming in tomorrow hopefully. i too will let yall know how it flies compared to a glow and proto
chiggins said:
In a general sort of way, but there is a lot more to a disc's flight than 4 numbers as we all know. The Gazelle is considerably smaller in diameter. This affects the flight quite a bit. What is does is make the Gazelle move faster laterally when it flips and comes back, which mean it flies on quicker S turns, where the Stalker's flight is more drawn out because of the large diameter. Also, once a Gazelle gets flippy it must be thrown with more hyzer to fly straight because it comes up pretty quickly, where the Stalker comes up slower so does not need as much hyzer to fly stable. Another difference of course is that the Stalker was designed for premium plastic and the Gazelle for dx. Premium Gazelles are much more overstable than Stalkers.
chiggins
Eagle Member
discspeed said:
You're tellin' me everything I wanna hear, and what I'm hearing is "this fits between a Roc stack and a couple PD's like a hand in a glove." Demmit, I did not need a new mold right now.
I've been playiin' with JLS's the last couple weeks, and they're pretty fun, but I got 'em in the wind a few days and I was having a real hard time solving any kind of headwind with 'em. You gonna tell me now that Stalkers are great in the wind too?
chiggins said:
They are pretty good in the wind, especially when new. I often disc up to the Stalker from my mids when there is moderate wind. I wouldn't push it hard distance-wise into a headwind, but its range links perfectly to the PD. The large diameter makes the disc flip slower, so its more forgiving and harder to lose control of. The little bead and low profile probably help out as well (I know the huge dome on discs like the JLS and Leopards really hurt them in the wind).
chiggins
Eagle Member
discspeed said:
...I know where this is gonna end up. I should just order 'em now, start goin' doubletime on the project list, and try and build up enough points that I won't catch too much heat when they get here.
tgm
Par Member
I just played a couple full rounds using the Stalker as my main driver. I'm totally in love. I'm really surprised how far I was able to throw it. I was throwing farther on many holes than I have with my Surge. It does have a tendency to turn a little bit fairly early in flight so a slight hyzer release seems to work perfect and then the disc just goes straight. I found myself bumping off the right trees a bit at first. It did OK in the wind but got a bit thrown around when it wasn't thrown flat into the wind.
I also noticed it's easy to overthrow with the disc. I used it on a couple approaches and thought I'd thrown pretty light but watched it sail past the basket.
I also noticed it's easy to overthrow with the disc. I used it on a couple approaches and thought I'd thrown pretty light but watched it sail past the basket.
booter
* Ace Member *
as good as my pd's have been performing,my stalkers shine just as much. I usually throw my 176 proto stalker in moderate headwinds,it does perform great since it has just a little more meat on it than my glow stalkers. Very good disc for frickn lazer beams. As always,the stalker is staying in my bag for a long time.especially since they fit perfectly under the pds
I've been growing to love my FR Z Stalker even more in the past month as I improve my throwing style with more dedication to the right pec drill philosophy. I'm seeing huge improvements. But even before this latest string of improvements, when I wasn't getting as much spin and probably had more OAT, the Stalker was still flying beautifully for me. I think this is a remarkable property of this mold, and can't be over-stated. Now that my throws are improving, the flight of the Stalker is simply extending out its laser-straight path to further and further distances. It is truly awesome!
Comparison to Gazelle seems OK, but the Gazelle has a lot more speed sensitivity to its turn and fade. The Stalker's rate of turn pretty much vanishes over a huge range of speeds when thrown flat.
My Stalker is good in headwinds up to about 10-15 MPH, though you have to compensate with a touch more hyzer. Anything over that, and you'll want to go for an over-stable driver.
Note that the Stalker flight is straight due to its bead, not because of its larger diameter. A larger diameter actually makes a disc more turnable, since all the aerodynamic torques that come into play scale in proportion to disc area (pi*r^2). Only the bead can explain the Stalker flight.
What I can't wait for is when one of the disc makers simply takes a Stalker-like rim and makes it wider (i.e., stretches the profile in radius) while retaining the bead (maybe the bead could also be widened in radius, maybe not...I don't know). What you'll get is a high speed disc that will be laser straight with almost no fade, possibly up to distances of 500' or more if it is done just right. If the Stalker is a longer Buzzz, this disc would be a longer Stalker, or long long Buzzz.
Comparison to Gazelle seems OK, but the Gazelle has a lot more speed sensitivity to its turn and fade. The Stalker's rate of turn pretty much vanishes over a huge range of speeds when thrown flat.
My Stalker is good in headwinds up to about 10-15 MPH, though you have to compensate with a touch more hyzer. Anything over that, and you'll want to go for an over-stable driver.
Note that the Stalker flight is straight due to its bead, not because of its larger diameter. A larger diameter actually makes a disc more turnable, since all the aerodynamic torques that come into play scale in proportion to disc area (pi*r^2). Only the bead can explain the Stalker flight.
What I can't wait for is when one of the disc makers simply takes a Stalker-like rim and makes it wider (i.e., stretches the profile in radius) while retaining the bead (maybe the bead could also be widened in radius, maybe not...I don't know). What you'll get is a high speed disc that will be laser straight with almost no fade, possibly up to distances of 500' or more if it is done just right. If the Stalker is a longer Buzzz, this disc would be a longer Stalker, or long long Buzzz.
Though I can't exactly bust out the physics, the large diameter does influence the straight flight in a way...It slows the precession of the high speed turn. The bead and the wing shape ensure that the disc pushes straight forward while it is flying at quite a range of hyzer angles so that you can keep the disc straight as it slowly flips to flat. The bead works to further slow the precession of the high speed turn. I think the bevel of the wing is responsible for the actual straight flight, with the diameter and bead affecting the range of speeds and angles that it maintains the straight flight.
rusch_bag
* Ace Member *
For as much as you guys have talked up the stalker, I did not understand why I hated mine so much. I got one of the first runs and then I got a standard one as well and neither one did much for me. I figured what the hell and got another one from some funny money I got and now I see what you guys are throwing. I got a 174 domey blue one and it is magical. I can't wait to throw it around more.
rusch_bag
* Ace Member *
I just read most of this thread and it seems like most of you guys like flat ones whereas I liked the domey one I had. What have you guys noticed in the flat vs the domey?
discspeed said:
You're talking about the moment of inertia...
For a disc, the standard moment of inertia is 1/2*mass*radius-squared. A golf disc with a rim has a somewhat higher moment of inertia than this (using the outer radius as the measure), but the moment of inertia still scales as radius-squared. Double the radius, quadruple the moment of inertia.
The aerodynamic torque, T, that leads to the kind of precession we call turn, scales with disc area, which is simply pi*radius squared. Again, scales as radius-squared. Double the radius, quadruple the torque.
For a disc with a constant spin about the axis of symmetry w, the conservation of momentum equation is,
X*I*w=T,
or,
X=T/(I*w).
where X is the rate of change in hyzer angle, or what we call turn.
Now, because T and I both scale as radius-squared, but they are divided against one another, the influence of radius actually divides out and disappears when assessing the rate of turn. In other words, radius doesn't matter.
Its all about the bead.
Once again practical experience with thousands of discs over the past 10 years tells me that there is something to the large diameter discs that affects the speed of their turn. I think it has something to do with the spin of the disc. I think the large diameter discs take a little more throw to get them spinning fast and they seem to lose their spin at a slower rate than smaller discs. Because of this they turn slower in and out of the high speed portion of the flight. The physics I don't know, but I think you could figure it out.
Although my understanding of physics does not go beyond a high school level, I feel it is very important/groundbreaking to understand the physics of disc flight. I think it could have far reaching technological implications far beyond disc golf.
Although my understanding of physics does not go beyond a high school level, I feel it is very important/groundbreaking to understand the physics of disc flight. I think it could have far reaching technological implications far beyond disc golf.
rusch_bag said:
I liked the flat ones because the first one I learned was flat. I have since come to prefer the ones with a little higher shoulder. I've still yet to see a truly domey Stalker, but the ones with a little do seem to hold their height better and carry further with that same straight flight. My favorite/workhorse Stalker currently is one of the domier ones (as in not completely flat like a Buzzz).
JHern said:
You mean the Spectra?
Oh wait, you meant a disc that doesn't fly like ass :lol:
rusch_bag said:
I like both, really. I see them as having different uses. The flat ones are easier to turn (and will turn further), so they're what I use most of the time when I'm looking for a fairway driver type shot. The domey ones are more HSS, so you can put a HEAP more power into them. I use them when I want a distance placement shot, need to hit a gap FAR down the fairway, or when the wind is more than the flat ones will handle.
When I'm playing glow rounds, the domey one gets more of my drives. The extra stability adds some versatility to it on hyzers and distance shots that the flat ones just don't quite have the cojones for.
discspeed said:
I think you're right, and that you can probably get more spin on a larger diameter disc, all else being equal. Then it is more of a bio-mechanical thing, rather than an inherent property of the disc in flight. Its probably much along the lines of Bradley's analogy of throwing the hammer, larger diameter=longer handle=more lever=more spin potential.
discspeed said:
Yes, this is highly interesting. I'm a practicing academic physicist, PhD and all, but I'm only 2 years into my disc golf experience, and haven't thrown nearly the number of discs as most of you veterans...plus I'm only just beginning to learn how to throw the disc properly and get over 350' consistently, so really the clock is only just starting on my experience at this level.
Anyways, I've learned a lot from these kinds of discussions, both with you and others. I'm writing much of it down, and then one day I'll have the magnum opus ready to go! Interesting to note that in our previous discussion on disc mass, that a similar conclusion was arrived at as the one I think we've arrived at above with respect to diameter variations: that mass variations and their consequences on disc flight have more to do with what happens before the disc leaves the hands than it does with what happens after the disc leaves the hands (though correlated mass-shape variations were also left open as a possibility in the mass discussion).
Now back to dreaming about that widened rim, small bead, longer and faster Stalker...I really wish I had a disc press around to play with!
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