The 2014 Memorial Championship

[JC17393]

I still want to see more NTs on par 64+ courses. The PHX courses leave me a little underwhelmed despite the wind, rain, and the long water carries. I know it is hard because you have to be able to accomodate all divisions. But at some point, I'd like to see the best players play the hardest courses only, and only in the open division. I suppose my wish will be granted for this year's worlds.

At NTs, there's no reason to accommodate any divisions other than MPO and FPO since those are the only required divisions at those events. So that shouldn't be an excuse, IMO. It's nice that most NTs offer age-protected divisions or run a concurrent amateur event, but it's not at all necessary.

What I think you're getting at is to have these events on courses where the SSA is 64+, not the par. Par can be anything we want it to be. You could call Fountain Hills a par 90 if you wanted, but it wouldn't make it any more challenging. I think having the biggest tournaments on the most challenging courses is a great ideal to strive for, but practically speaking, it's something that is still relatively difficult to pull off.

At this point in the sport's evolution, the primary factor in creating the biggest events is not having a challenging course, it's having the staff to put everything together. A great tournament staff can pull off a great event on any course, meanwhile a great course can't host a great event without a great staff doing all the work.

 

[JTacoma03]

It's all good. Nice meeting you, BTW. Hope you enjoyed AZ despite the crappy weather.

For sure, it was a pleasure.

Sunny and calm is boring anyway Saturday was intense!

 

[discgman]

Hmmm

I still want to see more NTs on par 64+ courses. The PHX courses leave me a little underwhelmed despite the wind, rain, and the long water carries. I know it is hard because you have to be able to accomodate all divisions. But at some point, I'd like to see the best players play the hardest courses only, and only in the open division. I suppose my wish will be granted for this year's worlds.

There are no par 4 or 5's at De Laveaga, but would you consider that course easy?

 

[Peterb]

Yes my mistake, SSA 64+. My guess is that some of the Portland courses will challenge the top players in such a fashion. I agree that staffing the event is crucial. I think PDX will do a great job though. My rule of thumb is the more players complain about things, the better the course.

 

[Peterb]

There are no par 4 or 5's at De Laveaga, but would you consider that course easy?

It's not easy to finish 15 under at Dela. But for the top pros, the course isn't anything too difficult.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

It's not easy to finish 15 under at Dela. But for the top pros, the course isn't anything too difficult.

Hopefully, Dela, and her deep, poison oak filled ravines, did not hear you say that.

 

[jeverett]

Back to the topic of 'difficult' courses again, eh? Alright, I'll throw this out as one method for pseudo-quantitatively evaluating 'difficulty' per hole:

What are the odds of, for the target skill group, a 'bad' drive costing the player a *minimum* of one extra throw? A number of course designers have suggested that, in order for a hole to not come down too much to luck/gimmicks, it should penalize (with at least 1 full extra throw) players in the target skill group no more than 1/3 times. e.g. 1 in 3 drives of the target group will end up OB.. or will hit an early obstacle.. or will land in an area where subsequent forward play is effectively impossible.

So 'difficulty' in this sense, can be measured by how close a hole's parameters get to this 1/3 limit.

Note: I said 'pseudo-quantitative' above, because the minute you try to insert the concept of 'par' into the above equation, it becomes subjective (because there are multiple concepts/definitions for 'par').

 

[Peterb]

Hopefully, Dela, and her deep, poison oak filled ravines, did not hear you say that.

Dela has taken from me plenty of times. For example, I threw what I thought was a perfect drive on hole 21, and it disappeared into the nether, never to be seen again.

Looking at the 2013 results, Paul won with a -18 overall (3 rounds) so I suppose in the longs the course is 'hard' enough to satisfy. I'm looking forward to a US open style course where a few under and the competitors are in it. The rest of the field is way over...

 

[jeverett]

Dela has taken from me plenty of times. For example, I threw what I thought was a perfect drive on hole 21, and it disappeared into the nether, never to be seen again.

Looking at the 2013 results, Paul won with a -18 overall (3 rounds) so I suppose in the longs the course is 'hard' enough to satisfy. I'm looking forward to a US open style course where a few under and the competitors are in it. The rest of the field is way over...

The closest to that I've seen is the Maple Hill course, where a 1020-rated round generally hovers around even Par. Personally, I like the concept of calibrating 'par' against SSA. i.e. for a Gold level course, a 1000-rated round should come in at even par. However, as mentioned above, there a lot of different ideologies/concepts relating to 'par'.

 

[McJesus]

On a different note,

I was surprised to see how similar Drew Gibson's putting technique was to Steve Rico. I thought Rico had one of the more unusual techniques, but seems like he's not alone in that method.

Thought McCray's putting was stellar for the most part.

Gibson's putts look very similar to Rico's and Drew's driving style is very similar to Gurthie's "pendulum" drive. He's a very interesting golfer to watch. It's almost like he's a hybrid golfer created by the evil geniuses at Innova

 

[JTacoma03]

Gibson's putts look very similar to Rico's and Drew's driving style is very similar to Gurthie's "pendulum" drive. He's a very interesting golfer to watch. It's almost like he's a hybrid golfer created by the evil geniuses at Innova

FWIW Feldberg has the "pendulum" drive, Gurthie is known for reaching under his arm.

Drew has a smoother, more fluid swing than either of those two however. Also he's 17...I've seen him change and tweak his putting and driving forms just in the time I've known him. So this probably isn't even his final stage! (for example his putt was much different last year)

 

[Star Shark]

I wonder if some of the Live Coverage issues weren't brought up based on last year's coverage. Namely, several folks commented in the chat board that the tourney is put on by Discraft and DGP was constantly showing ads for its sponsors, Innova, PDGA, GripEQ.

 

[JTacoma03]

It's the Mercedes-Benz superdome but they can't stop FOX from showing BMW commercials. I would wager that the answer is more parsimonious than that, but IF that were true then that's a stone-age mentality.

 

[Dana]

Would you be surprised by stone-age mentality in disc golf?

 

[JTacoma03]

Sadly, not a bit.

...but let me hold onto my idealistic optimism dammit!

 

[Jay Dub]

I wonder if some of the Live Coverage issues weren't brought up based on last year's coverage. Namely, several folks commented in the chat board that the tourney is put on by Discraft and DGP was constantly showing ads for its sponsors, Innova, PDGA, GripEQ.

Those ads would be seen by a few thousand people at the most, I doubt it causes any company a problem.

 

[LukeButch]

I still want to see more NTs on par 64+ courses. The PHX courses leave me a little underwhelmed despite the wind, rain, and the long water carries. I know it is hard because you have to be able to accomodate all divisions. But at some point, I'd like to see the best players play the hardest courses only, and only in the open division. I suppose my wish will be granted for this year's worlds.

Par over 64 doesn't mean Hard.

I can make a course be par 72 and make it extremely easy.

I agree that our top players should be playing on hard courses in the bigger events, but just b/c par is over a certain number doesn't mean it's hard.

what I want is GREAT courses for NTs, and there are too many people that think difficult= a good course.

Peterb- basically every pro I know counts Milo McIver(beaver state fling layouts) as one of their top 5 courses and they are only par 60 and 61 iirc. Yet I think of them as pretty tough courses because there are almost no "gimmies" and every shot has to be earned. Also the par 4s are what par 4s are supposed to be like : birdie-able by a good drive and a good upshot...both are needed.

 

[jeverett]

what I want is GREAT courses for NTs, and there are too many people that think difficult= a good course.

Peterb- basically every pro I know counts Milo McIver(beaver state fling layouts) as one of their top 5 courses and they are only par 60 and 61 iirc. Yet I think of them as pretty tough courses because there are almost no "gimmies" and every shot has to be earned. Also the par 4s are what par 4s are supposed to be like : birdie-able by a good drive and a good upshot...both are needed.

The Milo McIver BSF layouts (East and West) are both Par 60, each with SSA's very close to 60.