• Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
    It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)

The Magic

A week of this led on Tuesday to my longest ever throw, getting on for 500'

That's truly awesome! I have started thinking about lowering my disc weight... I've been throwing almost all 170-175g discs... the RoadRunner is 167g and is just SUPER touchy to flip. A few shots last night were flattening about 275' out and then starting to turn, but never fading at all... losing quite a bit of distance from other flips.

This is what I despise about hyzer flips for distance and why I tend to throw -2 turn 2 fade discs and let the disc do the turning for me.

Thank you HUB for your very motivational articles - they have finally made me go back and work on my own form in the field in a way I should have done years ago but was just too lazy to do properly.

Now here's hoping I can convert this improvement to the course and that the impending arrival of a baby doesn't throw me out for the next 4 years...

Good luck w/ the bambino and I'm stoked to hear that the articles got some fires lit to make some adjustments.

It does seem incredibly easy to slide back into more comfortable habits, especially when those things don't necessarily show up in an obvious negative way. If you know exactly what shot you throw at your home course, your body does it - the disc is in bird range - you just reinforced that you're doing it right.

No question, I've found that anhyzer shots with a wider rim are much harder to leverage and hold onto the disc to the hit. I've slipped out early at least 75% of the time during rounds when I'm throwing a Destroyer.

I can throw a teebird or similar rim width just fine, but the wider rims are substantially harder for me to hold to the right pec. If I do it slowly, I can feel my grip weakening as I keep my nose angle down (coffee pouring) and my wrist starts bending more and more. I can actually feel my pinky and ring finger losing ability to squeeze at a certain point.

This is pretty specific to anhyzer only.

Anybody figure that out?
 
I pointed this out to Mike C. in another thread. As he starts the pull, his pinky and ring fingers slowly start coming off the disc.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2556274#post2556274

Looks like it might be just a natural reaction of getting proper leverage from the forearm and wrist.

I recall that, but he's losing his pinky and ring in the reach back. I do think you're right though, that's a position that anatomically makes it very difficult to grip tightly with the pinky & ring fingers.

Perhaps he's just moved towards a grip that's focusing on the knuckle thumb point.

The more I've focused on a stronger knuckle & thumb pivot, the less I've been concerned about a strong power grip. I've stopped using my pinky if I'm adding some juice to a drive. It feels like there's more benefit from a better position to the leading elbow and disc pivot than there is from a tight grip.

I could be way off base, but the best part of the grip seems to be holding it just firm enough to make sure the pivot is happening at the hit.

I played a round with Scott Stokely a few weeks back and he throws a fan grip for his drives. Given his hands are huge... but still, the focus seems be more on the hammer rotation of the disc.
 
I could be way off base, but the best part of the grip seems to be holding it just firm enough to make sure the pivot is happening at the hit.

I played a round with Scott Stokely a few weeks back and he throws a fan grip for his drives. Given his hands are huge... but still, the focus seems be more on the hammer rotation of the disc.

This.

I've been feeling the same way lately - if the disc isn't pivoting, then a firm grip is counterproductive. The grip should only be made firmer to delay the disc pivot. Throwing with just the thumb-finger pinch will give you a better feel for how to initiate the pivot; after you learn that, you can try and perform the same action with more fingers or a tighter grip.
 
I could be way off base, but the best part of the grip seems to be holding it just firm enough to make sure the pivot is happening at the hit.

The pivot happens at the hit because you make it happen at the hit by pulling the back edge round with your active wrist extension (you are doing this I think), your three lock fingers (pinky, ring and middle) pop off and then the index/thumb lock pushes the disc into it's final pivot (the pivot is on top of the active wrist extension, it's the extra juice to big D). To do this you need to have a strong/firm lock point at your furthest extension from when the disc is feeling heavy in your hand through the wrist extension, if you don't have the strong pressure through the wrist extension the disc will pop out before you give it this extra pivot (micro slip/half slip) - see this thread from DGR - https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24903

This is something I have only felt a few times myself, it's a feeling i remember from throwing big in the good old days (and have been searching for ever since...) and was certainly feeling it again earlier this week, the disc bounces off your palm (kind of like a push putting feeling and almost instantaneously the index/thumb lock feels like it is pushing the disc - and this is the crucial bit it is pushing not pulling back on the disc which is what you would intuitively expect)

I think Blake explains that last bit somewhere else as the thumb giving the extra push so it will be lined up dead on your target line at release. It is not possible to get this extra oomph with a loose grip or if it is it takes incredible timing to clamp down at the exact split second required

The gif on the thread above of Avery is interesting as it just misses the actual hit point, The last frame is where half hitting occurs, if the disc breaks the grip then it's still a good drive but there should be another frame after this if the camera could pick it up where the thumb straightens towards the target and gives it that last push that gets the incredibly quick pivot, (and note the disc is already pivoting from the motions coming into it, the disc pivot Blake talks about is the extra quick one on the end of this)

Hope that made any sort of sense, or at least that's my understanding of it and i really hope I'm not talking crap.
 
Hope that made any sort of sense, or at least that's my understanding of it and i really hope I'm not talking crap.

It does make some sense. As somebody said in the thread you linked... we're talking about the absolute tiniest amount of times, so it's very hard to see even in slow motion video.

Then this post by Blake really hit home:

two-finger backhand grips yield a much greater amount of tendon flexibility. they are also much weaker. the strength aspect is a double edged sword: people who throw two-finger must have better timing to throw successfully and so most people who throw two-finger are better able to manipulate the disc's weight shift naturally (than people who throw with 4) and get the "edge around."
the downside: two-finger grips have much lower strength potential.

with that in mind, while a higher percentage of two finger grippers may throw 350'+, it is more difficult to throw 450'+. i will often train people to throw with two fingers (to develop shifting the disc's weight) and then have them add four and tell them to "do the same thing you did with two." in most cases this yields an increase of 30-50'.

basically: a two-finger grip makes it easier to feel when the disc's edge should come around. a two-finger grip makes it harder to transfer maximum power when you bring the disc's edge around.

After reading this thread, the preference of a four finger power grip makes a lot of sense. The key to strong snap is acceleration. With four fingers underneath the disc, you are getting a micro-burst of acceleration as the disc rips off of each finger, beginning with the pinkie. By removing a finger from the grip, you are losing a degree of acceleration.


sort of... but for different reasons.
if you think about the hammer drills and the "reverse thumb lead" methods, the premise is to widen the radius of the spiral of the disc's outer edge as it comes around from the start of the power pocket. e.g. there's a sepcific point on the disc that you want to rotate ~180+ degrees... basically it starts on the back side of the disc and comes around to the front side of the disc before leaving. to make it easier, assume this motion is a perfect "half circle" arc. you have the starting point, the finishing point, and the apex of the arc. the acceleration builds the most as the point passes through the apex of the arc and completes the final 90 degrees of rotation (this happens when the hand shifts from ~12 o'clock to ~4 o'clock). as the point passes the apex it will be pulling outwards (intertia) with a tremendous amount of G-forces. this is when 99% of slips/micro slips happen. the stronger grip makes it easier to hang onto the disc through that final part of the arc.

i won't describe this in more detail unless you actually hold a disc (put a sticker on it at the point behind the hammer's head) and trace through the arc to see what i'm talking about.

with the hammer/thumb lead throw, the arc isn't a perfect half circle, it's oblong, more like the hypotenuse and short leg of a rounded edge right triangle (but slightly less extreme). this basically makes it a "sharper turn" that the point on the disc has to make as it completes the arc and increases the G-forces/inertia even more. if you let the disc "swing loose" in the pivot, there's almost no way your rip point can hang onto it well beyond the apex.

i will diagram these differences... if/when someone actually holds a disc in their hand and traces out the motion and describes that they are seeing the point on the disc moving through the arc.

to make a comparison to something other than disc golf:
the pacing of the path of the point on the disc is a lot like making a high speed turn in a car. if you enter the turn too quickly (without control of the car's weight) you will skid and hit the wall (aka the understeer will pull you out). your goal is to enter the turn slow, exit the turn fast.

a strong grip is like having the batmobile and firing a cable/dart into the ground on the inside of the turn so that will hold the car around the turn at high speeds. if you can do this, you will actually accelerate coming out of the apex of the turn. there is a limit to grip strength that is equivalent to "breaking the cable" and sliding out and hitting the wall if the disc/car's weight is out of control.

That makes a ton of sense in terms that a more pivot oriented grip helps you to feel the rotation, but to make the next jump, you're going to have to grip harder to get the apex to hit acceleration without a slip.
 
Do you have a link to that thread or possibly the diagrams he was talking about making (if he did make them)? Might help drive home the point of the disc swinging around.
 
So lunch-time throws. 430' with one higher anhyzer hitting 450'.

Adjustment to the grip was to go to a full squeeze power grip and nothing else changed with my form.

I honestly have no ability to feel much of anything in the extension. It' happens so fast, it's just impossible for me to discern much other than I'm staying looser or tighter on the grip.

I actually did my typical power grip, then with my other hand, I squeezed my fingers together on the rim, creating an even tighter placement. If I simply power grip, it seems like my fingers are kind of far apart - and pulling the fingers together did feel like it created a stronger grip.

Long story short, it's feeling much more controlled later. The loose knuckle pivot, I still think is very helpful in getting that initial weight shifting feeling, especially if you're struggling between 300-350'. Seems like if I want to consistently or accurately throw 400'+ the tighter PG is the way to go.

I will tell you what though... anything past about 350' and accuracy is ROUGH. I feel like I'm reliant on release angle, glide, turn and fade to a huge amount figure out where the disc will end up. Hyzer flips are very difficult to predict for me, especially if any wind is involved.

TeeBirds and my Renegade are my best bet for getting past 400', thrown flat they predictably turn a bit and I am best with less fade.
 
Were you gripping tighter during most of the throwing motion/routine, or after the reachback, or only into the "power pocket" and beyond?

I've been having a pretty loose grip lately and I think I need to pinch down a bit more again.
 
Were you gripping tighter during most of the throwing motion/routine, or after the reachback, or only into the "power pocket" and beyond?

I've been having a pretty loose grip lately and I think I need to pinch down a bit more again.

I would describe it as snug until right pec, at which point I try to squeeze the entire grip.

Today I was much more focused on clamping the grip down for a one-shot rip out as late as possible, than worrying about a knuckle rotation.
 
Were you gripping tighter during most of the throwing motion/routine, or after the reachback, or only into the "power pocket" and beyond?

I've been having a pretty loose grip lately and I think I need to pinch down a bit more again.

Late late late, loose up until the wrist extension then gripping from there to stop it slipping. If you grip harder earlier it will tense your muscles and slow your arm. You should feel the discs weight increasing as you keep your hand on the outside, at the point you've got no more room for forward movement your hand has to start coming round the front of the disc and its from there you are gripping to stop slipping, you actively extend the wrist which whips the disc around and then sort of push into the final pivot. Try tracing it in slow motion and you should see how it will work, I think this is what Blake was meaning by teaching the rail method but he unfortunately has yet to expand on that.
 
^Yeah makes sense.

I think I've got most of the fundamentals/basis of these feelings...now I have to really increase them. Focus again on getting a bit more active wrist, pinch down as hard as possible at the end, etc. It's crazy how subtle a lot of these things are at the last instant of the throw, but how crucial they are for getting the pro length bombs.
 
When you get to the point of disc at pec and elbow out front... Is there a slight pause and THEN you hammer out from your elbow and follow through? I know hard to explain, but when I do standstills I think that's what's happening in my throw.

And by hammer out, I mean go as fast as you can from elbow bent to elbow straight and then disc releases?

Like im trying to hammer a nail into a wall in 1 hit.

(Not like I do that, but im trying to fix my form..trying to get some tips)
 
Last edited:
When you get to the point of disc at pec and elbow out front... Is there a slight pause and THEN you hammer out from your elbow and follow through? I know hard to explain, but when I do standstills I think that's what's happening in my throw.

And by hammer out, I mean go as fast as you can from elbow bent to elbow straight and then disc releases?

Like im trying to hammer a nail into a wall in 1 hit.

(Not like I do that, but im trying to fix my form..trying to get some tips)


In case you missed this from the Beato thread:



I don't feel any pause. There's kind of an elastic build up in my wrist, but the extension feels like a fairly uniform forward motion.

I would imagine that trying to break that motion down into 2 separate entities would be hard to keep the motion smooth.
 
When you get to the point of disc at pec and elbow out front... Is there a slight pause and THEN you hammer out from your elbow and follow through? I know hard to explain, but when I do standstills I think that's what's happening in my throw.

And by hammer out, I mean go as fast as you can from elbow bent to elbow straight and then disc releases?

Like im trying to hammer a nail into a wall in 1 hit.

(Not like I do that, but im trying to fix my form..trying to get some tips)

It helped me to not think in discrete motions...more a tempo. When it feels right (the hammer pound teaches feel, not positions), and you analyze later, you'll see you have the correct ingredients like shoulder pause and elbow chop.

Get the disc forward to the right pec, without tensing up. Then focus on elbow and shoulder. Make sure you remember shoulder. If you only do elbow, you'll lose a big muscle group and not have a good follow through. If you think shoulder, it might be more fluid. Either way, when you get the disc to the right pec/armpit, then open up, and it works...the pause will be incorporated automatically.
 

Latest posts

Top