The Value for money debate

[DavidSauls]

What if the TD simply provided the venue, administration, scoring and reporting for a nominal fee? There would be no payouts (maybe small trophy), and the only reward was the competition, camaraderie, and seeing one's score/rating online. ......And then, another person ran an optional side-bet game at the event.

This is already available, in a roundabout way. TDs can allow players to play "trophy only" at a reduced entry, while everyone else plays for prizes. Rarely do TDs offer this, and very rarely does anyone ask to play "trophy only", at least around here.

*

To a large degree the structure is run by the players---the customers. As Mashnut already said, TDs want players to come, and thus do what players want. Or what we think they want. A TD (or the PDGA) is free to impose a less-popular format, but players are free to not attend or go to other events with the Am payouts they want.

 

[Dave242]

Actually, it is not available through the Trophy-Only option. That is an opt-out of wagering and what I proposed was an opt-in. Totally different psychology between the two.

While talking about psychology, I think something important is that a player feels more "emotionally invested" in an event for which he/she has suffered a little pain (in the checkbook). By paying a larger amount event....the more it feels like a big event - differentiated from a weekly league sort of event. The recurring whining about cost is almost a necessary by-product of the necessary pain.

 

[DavidSauls]

That's true. I suspect that the more "emotionally invested" the player is, the more likely he is to show up, and not quit, especially if the weather is poor.

I've played a few successful low-entry, trophy-only for Am events. They had the advantage of being held on great courses.

 

[rootofthechord]

Someone else leaves the tournament with money or gift card that came partially from my pocket, that makes the tournaments feel like poker tournament, betting, or playing pool for money. And that's when things like return of investment, expected value, etc. start to creep in my head. You wouldn't play pool against the local shark for $20 a game if you know you can't win him.

I play some tournaments, but it bugs me that it feels like gambling with negative ROI (because I'm not good enough to be on the receiving end of the payouts). If the only people that got my money were the organizers, it would feel more like paying for the experience.

I fully agree with Archmage. Disc golf tounaments are missing out on a group of interested hacks like me because we don't want to participate in a tournament knowing that we're paying for someone else's plastic. A non-payout division would be a totally different situation.

As Dave242 pointed out, lack of payout does make the tournament more casual. Players are more likely to "flake out" if the weather or their score is bad. However, for some people, that's exactly the appeal of a game of disc golf: a more relaxed, less intense round. It seems like non-payout weekend minis would be a great way to "expand the sport" to a wider variety of people.

 

[Karl]

Mr. Root,

Everyone has an opinion, mine happens to be close to yours, but a lot of others may ask you (us) 'Why play tournaments then?' - alluding to if we wish to not risk anything / much, we should just play casually. I personally play tournaments not to 'win stuff' but I find that it helps me get into the focusing-Jones and thus improves my play. And also understand that there will be a lot of players who do not want tournament players 'taking tournament spots' if they dont' 'fork up' the dough to enter. Just people being people I guess. :l

Karl

 

[DSmith]

This is pretty much what I have been talking about for the last few years. Ive been calling it "Flat" payout as opposed to Trophy Only because it isn't trophy only. Entrants get a players pack equivilant to their entry fee (adjusting retail/wholesale pricing depending on what and how much money you want the event to generate) and the top finishers get trophies.
In otherwords everyone gets paid out the same amount. The empasis of playing a tournament goes back into competition to see whos the best and opposed to how much stuff you can win.
By aquiring sponsorships you add additional prizes for ctps, ring of fires, or additional payout purse.
We've been doing this for Novice and Juniors at the Lexington Open for the last few years with positive feedback.
The entries would be the same as in regular entry fee pricing ($30-$60), not the bare minimum like just covering the cost of trophies.
I really feel we need to get AMs weened off of "Scaled" payout. If they want more prizes then they can make the effort to go out and get sponsors.

It'll take a brave person to take the chance at starting this but I think once it catches on it'll greatly help legitimise the "sport" of discgolf.

 

[Karl]

I've been running a similar such tournament at Rutgers for the past 4 years (will continue to do so because those that do come really like it) but to be honest with you, I get very few of the "better players" (AM or Pro) because they're much more into the "...if I play well, I should get more than my fair share of the pie..." thing.

Karl

 

[nate22]

I fully agree with Archmage. Disc golf tounaments are missing out on a group of interested hacks like me because we don't want to participate in a tournament knowing that we're paying for someone else's plastic. A non-payout division would be a totally different situation.

As Dave242 pointed out, lack of payout does make the tournament more casual. Players are more likely to "flake out" if the weather or their score is bad. However, for some people, that's exactly the appeal of a game of disc golf: a more relaxed, less intense round. It seems like non-payout weekend minis would be a great way to "expand the sport" to a wider variety of people.

Agree 100% and it goes along with what the OP basically said...not everyone can be a great player, and those who are at the bottom end of their division know full well going in they are just throwing their money into the pot! At the other end, if the winners get not much more then their original 'value', then whats the point.

Id rather pay $5 and the winners get all of it, then $25 and the winners get a little...as an example.

 

[DeadEye]

I'm an intermediate player, I win my local mini probably around 40% of the time, and have gotten plastic winnings from almost every tournament I've played in so far... Yet last weekend I went to an Ice-Bowl at an incredibly hard course I've only played twice before, with a division of players I knew I had no chance against on the course. A few days before I was practicing straddle putts and my shoulder began popping, nothing too painful but definitely messed up my putts.. which is about 70% of my game.

Not only did I still go to the tournament I had no chance of winning, with a shoulder messing my game up... but for a 25$ tournament I donated an extra 15$ to the charity. It's not always about what you're getting in return.

 

[Puckstopper]

I am running my first few events this year. I have found there are a lot of fees that people don't account for. Some have already been said like park rental and scorecards. I did not see insurance thing come up. Some towns require you to insure your event from injuries. I have wondered why Crowley bicent park didn't run a lot of tourneys. The city requires 150 fee plus 150 deposit plus proof of insurance. And there was a few other little things here and there. Also you need to think about td's expenses of travel, website set up, disc shipping. I am trying to run my tourneys just to have money invested back in park but I am still stuck with the bill on a lot. That being said some td's do better job with money then others. I also learn from my past two experiences. I paid the same price pretty much (maybe 5 less don't remember). But one I got a base challenger putter. The other I got a glow z stalker and a choice of one other disc. I chose a volt. Then they came back and threw in a wizard. I know I will play the 2nd company more often.

Personally I'm not sure why some here resist transparency so much. If I were a TD I'd be in favor of it, to get players off my back. In the example above, on the surface, I'd agree that the second tourney sounds more appealing as a player. However, if the course the first tourney was on was better/more fun/ etc... that might sway my opinion. What if the first course cost 3x as much to rent? To be fair, I think this is why TD's should provide itemized lists of costs. It would increase transparency, and reduce whining if players had a better understanding of where the money came from and went. Imagine being handed a sheet of paper that said the following:

Entry fees: $575 ($25 average times 230 players)
Sponsorship Cash:$1000
Sponsorship Merchandise(retail value) $500
Total Funds:$2050
Payouts:$700
Park Rental$150
Insurance:$100
Food/Drink($250
Players Packs$500 (retail merchandise)
Misc. Expenses:$172
Cash to Club/TD$203/18 man hours of setup=$11.28 per hour.


Obviously my numbers are off, but it's a good enough hypothetical to move on with. A breakdown like this would help players understand where their money is going, and also help TD's/clubs decide if it's worth their while to continue hosting an event. Obviously this also requires an element of honesty on the part of the TD, but if he's claiming $500 in food/drink and all you get is a bottle of water and bag of peanuts, it's clear something's up and you may not want to play his events. On the other hand, you may WANT to play events where one of the line items is "Funds toward replacing baskets" or other such improvements for your local course. Unless you're scamming, I don't see how transparency hurts you.

 

[JC17393]

Unless you're scamming, I don't see how transparency hurts you.

Agreed. But I think the key is full transparency after the event, so players can look at it and say "okay, I got my money's worth" and future players can look at it and say "this event has given great value in the past".

I once took the full transparency before the event route. On the tournament flyer, the entry fees were broken down to show exactly where every dollar was intended to go...pdga fees, local series fees, greens fees, player pack, payout, charity, lunch, etc, etc. The problem that caused was not accusations of scamming, but cries and whines of "why are you including this" and "I don't want to pay for that". Some mistook the breakdown for an a la carte menu, expecting that they could discount the PDGA fee from their entry because they weren't members and didn't care to have their score sent in, or discounting the player pack because they didn't want one, etc.

Much more of a headache dealing with that than the occasional malcontent who wanted to know where their money went after the fact.

 

[rakeyohn]

Entry fees: $575 ($25 average times 230 players):\:\:\
Sponsorship Cash:$1000
Sponsorship Merchandise(retail value) $500
Total Funds:$2050
Payouts:$700
Park Rental$150
Insurance:$100
Food/Drink($250
Players Packs$500 (retail merchandise)
Misc. Expenses:$172
Cash to Club/TD$203/18 man hours of setup=$11.28 per hour.

I second the need for transparency.. there's 1,000's in unaccounted funds lol!

 

[Sadjo]

I keep really good records and when questioned I always offer to share the cost/budget of events I run. No one has ever taking me up on that. I think those that complain just do it because that's who they are.

Last event I ran someone got up in my face and i did what i always do...offered to show them the budget for the event....includes copies of receipts and all. They didn't want to see just complain. After they started at me again, i said offered to refund their entry fee so they could walk away...and that didn't work.

I decided before that event i was ready to be done running events....and that just confirmed my desire to be done.

 

[Dave242]

Remember that the items that are done on a per-player basis, the TD needs to account for maximum attendance. It would reflect horribly on the TD if food/players Paks/drinks ran out. But, then the financial risk the TD assumes is that if less than the maximum turns out, all of these items potentially become a loss for the tournament budget.

Conversely, the fixed cost items (insurance, rental/usage fees, sanctioning, etc) become less on a per player basis the more players show up.

This makes it hard to plan since our culture is allowing sign-ups at the event. It also makes it hard to calculate and post a financial overview at the event.

 

[Dave242]

Entry fees: $575 ($25 average times 230 players)
Sponsorship Cash:$1000
Sponsorship Merchandise(retail value) $500
Total Funds:$2050
Payouts:$700
Park Rental$150
Insurance:$100
Food/Drink($250
Players Packs$500 (retail merchandise)
Misc. Expenses:$172
Cash to Club/TD$203/18 man hours of setup=$11.28 per hour.

Obviously my numbers are off, but it's a good enough hypothetical to move on with.

Yeah....your numbers are off
It is 23 players, not 230 to get $575 in entry fees at $25 per head.
$1000 cash raised for a 23 player event is amazing! (what is the sponsors' ROI, might I ask?)
18 man hours to run an event is very "efficient", if you catch my drift.

I would like to play in your event. With $22 players packs for all, $11 food/drink each, and $700 of payout for the top 40%* that is a pretty good time!!

*payout curve might look like this:
1- $140
2- $100
3- $90
4- $80
5- $70
6- $60
7- $52
8- $44
9- $36
10- $28

......and you would still get complaints about the wholesale/retail differential. People want you to give them stuff at wholesale cost, dang it!

 

[Smigles]

I know this is a topic Ive read on here in the past, but wanted to gauge peoples opinions on pricing/value, that have come up locally.

One event was run, $25 a head. Players pack was a base plastic, standard disc. 20 players in total, 4 divisions. Each div winner took home a $20 voucher and an event trophy.

Is that good value for money? Is that the norm?

Good value for money has nothing to do with starting fees or winners payout.

I want a nice tournament, good atmosphere, challenging course, good competition. If it has that, and as long as it is not over 100$, it's good value for money.

 

[Sadjo]

I deducted $5 per player when I've provided lunch. No matter the preregistration, you need to plan for a full field...so anything less can be a loss. At $5 a head, that allows for a decent amount of food. If I deducted $11 per player, everyone might get surf and turf.

 

[DavidSauls]

I favor transparency, with the goal of educating players. But phrases like "transparency" and "scamming" imply that it's all the player's money, from start to finish.

Anywhere else where I pay admission or pay to participate in an event, I don't expect a financial statement to demonstrate where my money went. I judge whether the concert or amusement park or guided canoe trip was worth what I paid, in terms of enjoyment. If it wasn't, I don't go back.

I feel the same way about disc golf tournaments. If I pay $40 to play and get $40 enjoyment for a weekend of participation in an organized event, I'm happy. I don't particularly care about the financials, except that I hope the TD didn't lose money on the deal.

 

[DavidSauls]

Footnote to above: I do think TD's promoting a certain payout, such as "100% payout" or "$1000 cash added", have an obligation to show how that was calculated.

 

[Mabuku1]

no more transparency please. theres no need to know where every penny is going. they are not an entity of the govt. so there should be no "show me the money trail"attitude. they are making a tournament and should get paid to do so. you see the flyer and want to compete or you don't. that should be all.