Twin Cities area course vandalized by idiots protesting new user fees

[cydisc]

I do think that pay to play at a public facility would really cut down on the enjoyment of a lot of people who play disc golf. Also, I would say that the fact that disc golf is still largely free attracts people to the game and probably initially attracted those people who have played for a number of years and now support pay to play. And yes I would say this has a slightly anti-noobie feel to it. For me, I just don't like the obligation to have to pay every time.

Don't confuse anti-noob with anti-jackass. When players contribute to the upkeep of the course through use fees, they are less likely to mistreat the course. Low-lifes don't care about anything that doesn't cost them something.

 

[Danger]

Steve Rico leases the 'public park' land for his course at Sylmar. Its $2 a day to play there. I think the price is fair. They don't really run around checking for wristbands, but if your a local you will get one hell of a guilt trip if they notice you there and you haven't given the 2 bucks. I also have to say, as far as LA courses go, you can DEFINITELY see the money being spent on the course.

If this course in Minnesota JUST started charging, I wouldn't expect to see signs immediately. They have to build up some money to improve it. I know some of you all think the sport should be free, but a couple of bucks for something you love is worth it. I think if they lowered their fee to 2 or 3 dollars they would have a more positive response to the charges. I mean, its the price of a soda at the gas station.

 

[deadbody]

For the people who are talking about the amount $5 is what Blue Ribbon pines charges, and the $5 daily fee gets you into 2 courses actually, The valley and Kaposia.

$5 is reasonable, and once the total redesign of North Valley is done I would expect to see signs and some improvment to Kaposia.

If none is done then you'll hear a different tune.

 

[dodgeball]

Don't confuse anti-noob with anti-jackass. When players contribute to the upkeep of the course through use fees, they are less likely to mistreat the course. Low-lifes don't care about anything that doesn't cost them something.

If were only possible to keep all the jackasses out by charging a small fee, but unfortunately, I'm sure that wouldn't do it. My point before was that people who have played for a number of years and enjoyed their free lunch, now want to start charging to keep new people or more casual players off 'their' courses. Not fair.

 

[tallpaul]

Many who have enjoyed the bonuses of playing for free all these years, have also given considerable amount of time to keep the courses in the ground and looking good. If you get involved with these efforts also; I bet you will find, as you get to know these type of persons, that their stories will convince you that a yearly, or one time fee is in the best interest of all.

 

[Bubbajoe]

If were only possible to keep all the jackasses out by charging a small fee, but unfortunately, I'm sure that wouldn't do it. My point before was that people who have played for a number of years and enjoyed their free lunch, now want to start charging to keep new people or more casual players off 'their' courses. Not fair.

1) A fee wont take care of all the low-life's but it'll take care of a significant portion.
2) i dont think this is a case of old school trying to protect thier course as much as a way to curb burgeoning traffic and generate some much needed cash for maintence.
3) As a noob The whole "P2P will keep noobs from taking up the sport" argument is completely lost on me. When i started last year both free & P2P courses were availible. It took all of 1 round at Bryant Lake for me to see the overwhelming benfits of P2P.

Maybe it's because Ive never been struck will the "ALL HAIL THE MOST REVERED AND HOLY KAPOSIA!" attitude that so many seem to hold when it comes to this course, but seriously, the tantrums that are being thrown over this you would think that it's the only course it the Tri-state.

 

[DavidSauls]

Anyone from Delaware in this room?

I think PTP is the standard there, as most courses are in state parks.

 

[harr0140]

Many who have enjoyed the bonuses of playing for free all these years, have also given considerable amount of time to keep the courses in the ground and looking good. If you get involved with these efforts also; I bet you will find, as you get to know these type of persons, that their stories will convince you that a yearly, or one time fee is in the best interest of all.

Good point Paul,

Back in the day when there werent so many people playing this "free" sport the maintenance could be handled by just the few indiiduals who were dedicated to the courses. Now it seems that there is way too much traffic, way too much vandalism, and way too much erosion and other things to keep up with. Those people who used to do it themselves all the time are no longer able to keep up.

I hope that all parks begin to see the need to charge a nominal fee $2 a round or $5 all day (at our busiest courses (where the most maintenance is needed) this would mean $500-1000 per day during the summer which could be put towards better tee areas, basket upgrades or replacements due to vandalism, mulch replacement, lawn cutting, tree trimming, etc.) How much better would your courses be if they provided these extra fees to course maintenance? If you aren't willing to pay for it then go to the free course with gravel tees, crappy rusty old baskets, where the grass is 12 inches tall! Hey its still free! There is a place for both types of courses sure, but the better more frequently visited courses need a subsidy and we have to be willing to pay it or they will be removed!

Now just because it is a public park and you "pay taxes" (which is a common argument thrown out there, most likely by kids and non homeowners, who do not pay "property taxes") does not necessarily mean the park is for you to use for free. COnsider swimming pools charge money for the use that require a lot of extra staff and work to maintain, baseball fields require fees a lot of times, there are reservation fees for almost any area of any park that can be paid to reserve it. Look at it this way, the clubs or whoever is taking money for the course is in essence collecting these reservation fees from us users and putting it back into the course.

I surely hope whoever collects the money is honest and uses the money as it is intended. I would hate to think that any business involved in this sport would try and cheat the system, but you never know with some people out there. I would guess if they are in this as a business they are probably looking into it for the long haul and promotion of the sport is their key to longevity.

Sorry I got a little heated there.

 

[tallpaul]

I disliked paying the state parks fees for the eastern courses back in the day. I once parked outside of one of the Delaware courses and hiked in; with two of my brothers; who were not really discers in tow. Well, I ended up looking over my shoulder the whole round and not having near as much fun as I would have otherwise.
After the round was over; we trudge back to the car and find a ticket on the windshield; that cost more than the round would have; plus nearly ripped the oil pan off the car on a huge rock attempting to leave!
This brings up another point....I am still cheap enough that I would want to play a course that had a yearly fee; rather than a daily one; if it's one of my "home" courses. From what I've seen; yearly fees are offered at nearly all courses that have entry fees; and the price is low for said yearly fee. @$40 to $60 would certainly be worth it to play at a course that I'm playing tons of times. If I'm traveling, no big sweat to pay a one time fee.

 

[cbeckett22]

Can't we all just get along and play some DG? lol! But seriously, as long as the price is somewhere near $5, I will pay it anytime, but as soon as it starts to get as expensive as ball golf, I'm out. You will never catch me paying $30 to play any kind of golf, no matter how awesome the course is.

 

[harr0140]

Can't we all just get along and play some DG? lol! But seriously, as long as the price is somewhere near $5, I will pay it anytime, but as soon as it starts to get as expensive as ball golf, I'm out. You will never catch me paying $30 to play any kind of golf, no matter how awesome the course is.

No way disc golf will ever be comparable with golf because the grass is so expensive to maintain on a daily basis and we hae almost no need for perfect conditions. Sure someone might come along and have a course where you have to pay $50 to play it with a cart (which would be like paying $400 to play Pebble Beach for a round of golf), but consider how many people are willing to spend that much and many of those who are willing to pay it, are only willing to pay it once a lifetime.

 

[dodgeball]

I hope that all parks begin to see the need to charge a nominal fee $2 a round or $5 all day (at our busiest courses (where the most maintenance is needed) this would mean $500-1000 per day during the summer which could be put towards better tee areas, basket upgrades or replacements due to vandalism, mulch replacement, lawn cutting, tree trimming, etc.) How much better would your courses be if they provided these extra fees to course maintenance? If you aren't willing to pay for it then go to the free course with gravel tees, crappy rusty old baskets, where the grass is 12 inches tall! Hey its still free! There is a place for both types of courses sure, but the better more frequently visited courses need a subsidy and we have to be willing to pay it or they will be removed!

I'm fighting an uphill battle on this board, but here goes..

You really hope ALL parks begin charging? I don't! I think the public courses should be free and if you want more ammenties, concrete pads, etc., there's always the possibility of private ones. That's free enterprise and the American way, right? Yes I realize the public courses are overused, but I think they need to build more new ones. There has been quite an explosion of public courses in say the past 5 years, but it just hasn't quite kept pace with the growing popularity of the sport. And I don't think disc golfers abuse the land more than any other park users. IT's just a problem of more feet tredding over the same pieces of land. P2P is not a real fix to the problem. Yes, no doubt it will work, but mainly by just cutting down the number of people who will pay that fee, no matter how nominal you might feel it is. I think everyone who wants to play should be able to! And fees have a way of magically rising! So I wouldn't be surprised if some of these same pay to play supporters are complaining about increasing fees in a few years!

 

[ejsandstrom]

I think this comment gets it about right. In public parks, the basic maintainence of the park is alreadycovered by the city or county. Even if there was no disc golf course, the grass would still have to be mowed and branches cleared away, etc. Any improvements (incl. concrete tee pads, new sign posts) can be done by local clubs and I don't think most members have a problem with this since they probably use the course the most. Now everybody can help by just not littering on the course and maybe helping with cleanup.
.

Many of the courses I play are city park types. Open fields, swingsets, slides, etc. These parks require $0 extra. If you charged me a dollar/day to play Monticello, I would never go back. My issue is that once a .gov passes a new fee or tax, it never goes away. We pay an extra .5% sales tax to pay for the metrodome, that was paid off years ago. The extra tax is still there.

Any one ever visit Theo Worth? Or Victory memorial? Hundreds or thousands of acres of grass to mow. But its free. Is grass on a 5 acre DGC more expensive? Are the benches on Theo Worth free?

Lets say that no one bitched about P4P at this park. In 2 or 3 years the course would have every conceivable upgrade and the $200 to $300 a week to mow the grass would be a drop in the bucket of how much money they were taking in. Then what? Now where does the money go? Maybe build another DGC, or is it like every other .gov program, they funnel the money into a skate park or what ever. Soon there are a bunch of kids on a skate park (for free mind you) while you and I pay $5 to take a walk and throw some disc's around for an hour or so.

Citys WASTE MILLIONS every year. Why do they need to hold their hands out for more money?

 

[dodgeball]

Many of the courses I play are city park types. Open fields, swingsets, slides, etc. These parks require $0 extra. If you charged me a dollar/day to play Monticello, I would never go back. My issue is that once a .gov passes a new fee or tax, it never goes away. We pay an extra .5% sales tax to pay for the metrodome, that was paid off years ago. The extra tax is still there.

Any one ever visit Theo Worth? Or Victory memorial? Hundreds or thousands of acres of grass to mow. But its free. Is grass on a 5 acre DGC more expensive? Are the benches on Theo Worth free?

Lets say that no one bitched about P4P at this park. In 2 or 3 years the course would have every conceivable upgrade and the $200 to $300 a week to mow the grass would be a drop in the bucket of how much money they were taking in. Then what? Now where does the money go? Maybe build another DGC, or is it like every other .gov program, they funnel the money into a skate park or what ever. Soon there are a bunch of kids on a skate park (for free mind you) while you and I pay $5 to take a walk and throw some disc's around for an hour or so.

Citys WASTE MILLIONS every year. Why do they need to hold their hands out for more money?

Halleighluia, someone agrees with me! Yep, once they would okay those fees, they would never go away and they would only go up!

 

[scarpfish]

Yes I realize the public courses are overused, but I think they need to build more new ones. There has been quite an explosion of public courses in say the past 5 years, but it just hasn't quite kept pace with the growing popularity of the sport.

Where do you think all of that money to build new courses is going to come from? Like I stated in the other thread, parks departments across the country are BROKE and are seeing their funds from the public kitty slashed. Several people here can attest to having their courses closed, threatened of being closed, or at the least having their so-called "basic maintenance that would taken care of anyway" significantly reduced, because there IS NO MONEY.

 

[harr0140]

Where do you think all of that money to build new courses is going to come from? Like I stated in the other thread, parks departments across the country are BROKE and are seeing their funds from the public kitty slashed. Several people here can attest to having their courses closed, threatened of being closed, or at the least having their so-called "basic maintenance that would taken care of anyway" significantly reduced, because there IS NO MONEY.

Sounds like we need to privitize the disc golf portions of the parks. Maybe they will allow businesses to come in and take care of the property while bringing in the money for improvements. I doubt they would go for it when they could just start charging for usage themselves with very little input needed. The problem with them taking in the money is that they will not improve the disc golf course as much as the other big money making areas of the parks.

Who is with me?

 

[dodgeball]

Where do you think all of that money to build new courses is going to come from? Like I stated in the other thread, parks departments across the country are BROKE and are seeing their funds from the public kitty slashed. Several people here can attest to having their courses closed, threatened of being closed, or at the least having their so-called "basic maintenance that would taken care of anyway" significantly reduced, because there IS NO MONEY.

Okay, granted some park depts are as broke as a lot of people, but until the economy gets going and the general funds get replenished, I'll make do with the existing DG courses. Just NO FEES! And I kind of doubt the fees would be used for new courses. Like someone just said, I think they just be put back into the general park fund.

 

[scarpfish]

Sounds like we need to privitize the disc golf portions of the parks. Maybe they will allow businesses to come in and take care of the property while bringing in the money for improvements. I doubt they would go for it when they could just start charging for usage themselves with very little input needed. The problem with them taking in the money is that they will not improve the disc golf course as much as the other big money making areas of the parks.

Who is with me?

Here's a suggestion that would keep a course free yet give it some semblance of a revenue stream. Allow a disc vendor exclusive right to set up shop at a course. They pay a flat fee to the parks department to vend for so many weeks just like buying a booth at a flea market or trade show. (If there are multiple parties bidding for this position, highest bid wins). Vendor gets to keep all of their profits. Course stays open.

Another suggestion would be to allow someone to vend at the course for free, but with the stipulation that they be in charge of selling admission passes. The city sets the prices. The vendor checks out the wristbands and tickets from the parks department and is responsible for them and the money raised from their sale. They keep none of the admission money. Course is pay to play. This in fact seems closest to what is happening at Kaposia.

 

[deadbody]

Here's a suggestion that would keep a course free yet give it some semblance of a revenue stream. Allow a disc vendor exclusive right to set up shop at a course. They pay a flat fee to the parks department to vend for so many weeks just like buying a booth at a flea market or trade show. (If there are multiple parties bidding for this position, highest bid wins). Vendor gets to keep all of their profits. Course stays open.

Another suggestion would be to allow someone to vend at the course for free, but with the stipulation that they be in charge of selling admission passes. The city sets the prices. The vendor checks out the wristbands and tickets from the parks department and is responsible for them and the money raised from their sale. They keep none of the admission money. Course is pay to play. This in fact seems closest to what is happening at Kaposia.

This plus a percentage of the profits is what is happening at Kaposia AFAIK.

The money being raised is going to rebuild what has the potential to be a great course (The Valley) and will restore Kaposia in time. Then the money will be used to support other things for the cities of South St. Paul and Inver Grove Heights. I have no problem putting a bit of money down to play good courses.

 

[jdggna]

Lets say that no one bitched about P4P at this park. In 2 or 3 years the course would have every conceivable upgrade and the $200 to $300 a week to mow the grass would be a drop in the bucket of how much money they were taking in. Then what? Now where does the money go? Maybe build another DGC, or is it like every other .gov program, they funnel the money into a skate park or what ever. Soon there are a bunch of kids on a skate park (for free mind you) while you and I pay $5 to take a walk and throw some disc's around for an hour or so.

I guess you're assuming that the course only changes once. With the extra income comes extra possibilities. In addition to the little things that improve the feel and atmosphere of a course, major changes can be made. Additional holes, course redesigns, adding extra/more trees, eventually the possibility of opening an entirely new course. On top of that, things need to be replaced from time to time. Once a bench is placed it will eventually deteriorate and need to be replaced. Teepads may need to be repoured over time. Sod can be brought in to replace damaged ground in high traffic areas. These things don't come cheap.