un level tee pads

[knettles]

I don't know if Innova or PDGA has ever done anything like this, but I think it could be a big help if they had a "course installation instructional" flyer or something like that posted on their sites. Something that was easy to notice and find, with clear instructions on tips for creating courses and major no-nos as well. Simple things so somebody building a course with limited experience (already a bad idea) can go to either site and learn that 100' holes are bad, teepads should be flat and at least 9'-10' long, and the importance of signage.

I agree with most people on here, there is no excuse for horrible teepads. Great tees can be made for cheap with limited effort on all types of terrain. If tees aren't done right, it's either because the person making them didn't know what they were doing, or they were lazy. Honestly, I believe a large percentage of the time it's the former. So, spread the word!

 

[MarkDSM]

On a couple local courses, I believe the unlevelness of some tees is attributed to non ideal placement / hole design. In my central iowa locale concrete pads in poor drainage of any sort do not like freeze/thaw cycles.

 

[trifocal]

On a couple local courses, I believe the unlevelness of some tees is attributed to non ideal placement / hole design. In my central iowa locale concrete pads in poor drainage of any sort do not like freeze/thaw cycles.

When this thread popped up, I thought of Veterans Memorial near Dubuque.
There are several marvelously tilted ( and short) tee pads on Veterans. Throw in a couple of tee shots that cross fairways of other holes and the barrier hedge rows that are near impenetrable and the result is a very quirky course. Fun times. :thmbup:

 

[elmexdela]

haters gunna hate. i played best in the business today boys

 

[Declarkus]

Would you rather have an uphill pad or a flat pad w/ a waist high wall?
I'm not a fan of either, but I think I'd rather run up into a wall.

I see pros throwing to the side of the pad when the pad is too slippery. Is this an option offered by the TD or is it a PDGA thing? And does the TD designate which side of the pad you can throw from or do players get to choose?

 

[knettles]

Would you rather have an uphill pad or a flat pad w/ a waist high wall?I'm not a fan of either, but I think I'd rather run up into a wall.

I see pros throwing to the side of the pad when the pad is too slippery. Is this an option offered by the TD or is it a PDGA thing? And does the TD designate which side of the pad you can throw from or do players get to choose?

Personally, I'd rather have a flat pad that is elevated waist high at the rear, even with the ground going uphill at the front. As long as it's long enough, you shouldn't risk falling off the back, and if your follow through sends you forward off the pad, you don't slam into a wall.

 

[Deuces]

It's easy to say there should be a standard, but it's a little trickier in practice. There are a lot of different kinds of tee pads, you like circular pads (which take at least double the concrete for the same amount of runup), some like rectangular or trapezoidal or hexagonal pads, whose favorite gets chosen as the standard? Who sets that standard? How do you enforce that on a group of volunteers installing a course on a shoestring budget who can only afford the concrete for 3x6' pads or a park department who has no clue that some guy on the internet is setting standards for them?

Baseball infields are uniformly sized. So are basketball, racquetball, and tennis courts. Pool tables, dartboards, etc... It is common practice to have a set of standards in place so the game can be played fairly everywhere. No one is going to stop random guy from pouring his 3X6 tee, but we can at least tell him what the standards are. The PDGA needs to set clearer guidelines for the benefit of the game and all of us that play it. And since they get $100 from so many of us each year, I think they certainly have the resources to do so.

 

[mashnut]

Baseball infields are uniformly sized. So are basketball, racquetball, and tennis courts. Pool tables, dartboards, etc... It is common practice to have a set of standards in place so the game can be played fairly everywhere. No one is going to stop random guy from pouring his 3X6 tee, but we can at least tell him what the standards are. The PDGA needs to set clearer guidelines for the benefit of the game and all of us that play it. And since they get $100 from so many of us each year, I think they certainly have the resources to do so.

Here is the relevant piece of the course design guidelines the PDGA already publishes, how is this different from what you're asking of them? They have no authority to enforce any of it, and they know it. All they can do is make a recommendation, which they've been doing for years.

5. TEES: Hard surface tee pads of textured cement or asphalt are preferred. Typical size for pads at the longer tee positions is 5 ft (1.5m) wide by at least 12 ft (3.5m) long. Maximum size at the front line of the pad is about 6 ft (2m) wide with a length up to 20 ft (6m) long. The back end might flare out to 10 feet (3m) wide. Minimum rectangular size is 4 feet (1.2m) wide and 10 feet (3m) long. If you need to conserve materials, make tee pads shorter on short or downhill holes and longer on long holes. For example, a hard surfaced tee pad at the top of a hill on a short hole might only need to be 8 ft long because most players will just stand at the front edge of the tee to make their throws.
Non-hard surface tee areas should be even surfaced and not contain protruding rocks or roots. Tee areas should be level from left to right. They should not slope too sharply from front to back. Without hard surfaced or rubber tee pad, the front edge of tee area must be indicated by the front edge of a tee board buried flush in the ground or by the imaginary line between two stakes or flags that mark the front edge.
Beyond the front of each tee pad and either side should be adequate room for follow-thru so a player doesn't risk twisting an ankle, falling off a ledge or whacking their arm on a tree or sign. If possible, provide adequate level ground for a run-up behind each tee pad, especially on longer holes. Avoid major obstructions that severely block the flight path up to 20 feet in front of tee.
On courses with alternate tees on some holes, the tee surfaces in the shorter positions should always be better or at least equal in quality to those in longer positions. For example, avoid designs where the long tee pads are cement and short tee pads are grass or dirt, especially when there are no tee signs.
The designated color for each set of tees used for course layout identification on scorecards should match one of the four recognized player skill levels that set of tees was designed for: Gold, Blue, White or Red. Sometimes there's no room for two tees on every hole. Just make sure to mark each tee on single tee holes with both colors.
Course managers are encouraged to move toward these color guidelines when the opportunity presents itself for new installations, redesigns or course upgrades when their current color(s) do not match the PDGA guidelines.

 

[Deuces]

Here is the relevant piece of the course design guidelines the PDGA already publishes, how is this different from what you're asking of them? They have no authority to enforce any of it, and they know it. All they can do is make a recommendation, which they've been doing for years.

Thank you for sharing that information mashnut. Why would you say that the PDGA has no authority to enforce this sort of rule change? They already enforce many rules dealing with conduct in their events. Why would they be unable to enforce a change dealing with uniform teeboxes?

It appears as if the next logical step would be to firm up these tee definitions so they are not so vague and open to interpretation, then over the course of a few seasons (giving everyone adequate time to meet these requirements) require that courses meet these defined standards to host PDGA events.

Worse case scenario, they could require that all courses installed after a certain date meet the requirements. I must be missing something here.

 

[mashnut]

Thank you for sharing that information mashnut. Why would you say that the PDGA has no authority to enforce this sort of rule change? They already enforce many rules dealing with conduct in their events. Why would they be unable to enforce a change dealing with uniform teeboxes?

It appears as if the next logical step would be to firm up these tee definitions so they are not so vague and open to interpretation, then over the course of a few seasons (giving everyone adequate time to meet these requirements) require that courses meet these defined standards to host PDGA events.

Worse case scenario, they could require that all courses installed after a certain date meet the requirements. I must be missing something here.

How can they require anything? They're not putting any money in, they're not there at any of the installations and they have no relationship with local park districts. They have zero power over any function of course installation outside of things like basket specs, and that goes through the basket manufacturers. They can't mandate that concrete or rubber companies only sell tee pad material to people who are putting in tees that follow PDGA specs.

Your next point is going to be that they can say tournaments can only be held on courses that have tees within spec. Great, now the PDGA just lost half its revenue because nobody's sanctioning their tournaments any more. It's cheaper to make the decision not to sanction than to spend thousands on tee replacement and upgrade because a few guys in Georgia said so.

 

[dukesilver]

do all NT events at least follow the recommended specs?

 

[keith johnson]

do all NT events at least follow the recommended specs?

No they don't. (can't answer just no as it's too short of a post to submit)

 

[Deuces]

I disagree with your point about them losing half their events. Our own home courses are always making improvements and would likely upgrade our existing courses due to club members wanting to have sanctioned rounds. I get what you are saying about the PDGA not being able to "make" anyone do anything, but I think you are slightly exagerating their ineptitude. The PDGA needs to provide the guidelines then individuals and clubs will make things happen at a local level. The sport is growing as HB can attest to himself. New courses continue to go in across the country on a near daily basis. All I'm suggesting is that we find a way to define specific characteristics for the disc launch point area the same way we have with the discs themselves, and where they eventually come to rest.

 

[mashnut]

It's not about ineptitude, it's about you wanting them to take on something totally outside their control. The guidelines I posted are significantly lower than what you want and have been around a while, they haven't changed anything. If there isn't money for better tees, your plan means no course or no sanctioned events. The PDGA has no power over the people that install courses. A large portion are put in by public employees who may not have even heard of the PDGA.

It's great you have a local club that raises money and makes improvements. That said, if those improvements were "mandated" by the PDGA, every one of the clubs I've been involved with would be really upset that some national organization who didn't provide any money or help in the installation process was now coming in and telling them how to prioritize their money and effort.

 

[Deuces]

Then a grass roots crapshoot it is. Bring on the carpet, rubber pads, crush-n-run, and woodchips...


All I keep thinking of is how rediculous football would look if some fields were X wide and others were only X-10 long. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[tallpaul]

Not that it adds much to the discussion; but both pool tables and outdoor basketball courts are different sizes. Recreational football; played by average Joe; is also played anywhere there is some grass...
Tees are certainly getting much better, in general, these days; and many courses have upgraded at this point; as well. This is becoming less and less an issue.
As far as the levelness of tees and that being a potential designer's/design feature choice; I'll just leave that alone...

 

[mashnut]

I hope that didn't come across as me disagreeing that it would be great to have nice tees on every course. I advocate for putting money into improvements on tees and signage all the time, and as a fairly tall person I definitely appreciate a nice large flat pad. I just think we need to be realistic about what a tiny organization like the PDGA is going to be effective at and not expect them to waste money on something that they're pretty much guaranteed to fail at.

Side note, baseball fields and soccer fields aren't standard shapes or sizes, they fall within a general range, and I haven't seen too many arguments that's what holds them back. Golf tees are all pretty flat, but they're varying sizes and materials even with the vastly greater money and multiple sanctioning bodies involved in the game. I found this article, the beginning of it lays out a pretty good explanation of why one of golf's sanctioning bodies has declined to do exactly what you're wanting the PDGA to do.