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Understability Really Two Things?

This is definitely the case when it comes to blizzard plastic. If the bubbles aren't evenly distributed you end up with an uneven mass throughout the disc which could make it no longer symmetrical but asymmetrical (not in shape but in mass). Such a disc would have an inherent wobble.

Interesting, and a really good point thanks.

Until proven otherwise I'm going to be saying wobble causes understability in future. Anyone got any complaints with this dummed down summation? Genuinely I think this will be helpful from a teaching point of view as it gives people a visual clue to what's going wrong and what they need to do to correct it, (ie slow down and throw cleaner on plane shots)

I would love someone to look into Dg-Players guess as to why the wobble creates the effect - anybody with access to a windtunnel? This looks like a good thesis subject for a physics student with applicable uses in industry once proven one way or another.

Also I thought I was in over my depth already in this thread last week but the last 4 pages have just raised the water level even further....
 
Interesting, and a really good point thanks.

Until proven otherwise I'm going to be saying wobble causes understability in future. Anyone got any complaints with this dummed down summation? Genuinely I think this will be helpful from a teaching point of view as it gives people a visual clue to what's going wrong and what they need to do to correct it, (ie slow down and throw cleaner on plane shots)

I would love someone to look into Dg-Players guess as to why the wobble creates the effect - anybody with access to a windtunnel? This looks like a good thesis subject for a physics student with applicable uses in industry once proven one way or another.

Also I thought I was in over my depth already in this thread last week but the last 4 pages have just raised the water level even further....
Wobble is related to stability, you can induce different wobble to make a disc fly understable or overstable depending on the wrist roll. It is impossible to throw or fly a disc without wobble. Lift(speed) also causes wobble.

The stability of the disc IMO has to due with the relative height of center of mass/gravity of the disc and how wide the mass is distributed. When you change the wing design to a SS model, the wing becomes less concave, lowering it's com/cog and so it's wing is "straighter" or less stable. Aerodynamically the straighter wing is more slippery as well, than a concave wing that would hold it's position better and be more resistant to roll. When you change the dome design to make a disc more or less glidey it's also changing the com/cog relative to the flight plate making the disc more or less stable.

I think the disc stability is more like a pendulum system. The com/cog leverage is opposite flying than on land at high speed. On land a lower com/cog is more stable than a higher com/cog, you often hear in football or sports involving leverage that the lower man wins. In flight the higher com/cog wins leverage. When the com/cog is higher on a disc it better resists that flipping force in the pendulum. Wider wings(more mass outside) also creates an effective wider base or wider stance to make it more stable just like your throwing or hitting stance.

All discs have some sweet spot where the wobble oscillates and stays inside a balanced pendulum which is relative com/cog and mass distribution of each disc. Once the disc speed/lift/wobble up pressure is reduced past the disc's critical point, the pendulum falls over into fade never to return. If the disc speed/lift/wobble pressure is increased past the disc's critical point the pendulum falls over into turn and burn.
 
It makes more sense to me to think of two competing and nearly equal forces as a oscillations that are on perpendicular axis. If the shape of the gyro is OS or US or imperfect (warbled) then the force that is causing pitching motion is affected to make that oscillating force greater or less than the force that's holding the disc in the perpendicular axis.

That may be complete garbage in terms of physics-speak, but imagining one slightly larger oscillation having more force than it's counterpart for each cycle of the oscillation, and pitching it ever so slightly causing precession - makes sense.

And as we all know, if it makes sense in physics... it must be wrong.
 
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Think about what happens when you throw an Aerobie Epic.
 
People point and laugh?

They laugh until I throw it! Once it barrel rolls and glides out: "Whhhhhhhhaaaaat...." :D

It's been the most fun part of developing a thumber! You just never know where the thing is going.

So that's actually an interesting thought: the rim of epic is much bigger on one side - probably 3x the small side. It's got a built in wobble and you have to taco the disc to add even more wobble so that when you throw it overhand, it will flip all the way over.

Lends credence to my way of thinking of it - that the force causing precesion is strong enough to overcome rotational stability for a time. The drag I would guess is the force creating pitch and thus precesion.

[I have no idea what I'm talking about]
 
There was a thread about this a while back, and I dug into it separately as much as possible.

The "helo blade" theory isn't right. Or more specifically, the idea that the side of the disc spinning into the wind has greater lift acting on it, doesn't hold.

The best I could come up with in layman's terms: An US disc will have the moment of lift occur behind the center of the disc. Precession will cause that force to at least partially exerted along an arc in the direction of spin.

Thus, for a RHBH thrower on a flat release, an US disc will orient itself for most of the flight in a nose down and L to R tilt.
 
The center of rotation(and center of lift) is not geometric center of disc, it rotates around it's com like hammer. I can BH and FH an epic fairly well, but OH is laughable double barrel roll for me.
 
Wobble is related to stability, you can induce different wobble to make a disc fly understable or overstable depending on the wrist roll.


Hmm, damn, this is a good point.

I give up.

Why discs fly is black magic.

That's what I'm going with.
 
How can wobble make a disc fly more OS? I have not seen this I do not believe.
Hold your disc at your 4 o'clock rip point, then roll your wrist under, then roll your wrist over, notice how the disc gets pitched and when released the wobble is going to start oscillating around in opposite directions on an intermediary axis, roll under wobble oscillates nose upward or OS, roll over wobble oscillates nose downward or US. It's like hitting a draw vs a fade with the same disc, shaping shots.

OS wobbles:

 
roll under wobble oscillates nose upward or OS, roll over wobble oscillates nose downward or US. It's like hitting a draw vs a fade with the same disc, shaping shots.

Fascinated, more please - explain this bit like i'm five with pictures. Why does the under wobble move center of lift forwards while roll over wobble pushes/keeps it back?
 
Fascinated, more please - explain this bit like i'm five with pictures. Why does the under wobble move center of lift forwards while roll over wobble pushes/keeps it back?
http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/fairway-drivers/speed-7/teebird.html
The ^ Innova disc image wobbler is a good way to view the difference in the wobble. Scroll to the right for roll under wobble(RHBH), scroll to the left for roll over wobble. You can see how when the disc wobbles scrolling to the right(under) the front right bottom edge of the disc is exposed to airspeed initially. That creates a huge jerk force moment and nutation/wobble frequency, the disc gets perpetually jerked each oscillation but less each time around as the air speed slows and the friction and gyro dampens it into the path of least resistance to it symmetrical axis. The wobble creates a vortexing COP with a jerk rhythm. When you roll your wrist over pitching the nose down at release, the initial jerk moment is on the top left edge of the disc, and then on the bottom left edge and perpetuates that motion until the speed slows and the wobble spirals inward to it's symmetrical axis in the path of least resistance.

The spin rate also varies or jerks/wobbles even when it's rotating on it's symmetrical axis without intermediary axis wobble. This is due to the forward direction vector with spin and leverage at release as the disc is rotating around your finger/the disc's edge, instead of the initial rotation being at the disc's center of mass. The disc's rotation will spirally creep inward to rotate closer to it's center of mass after release. I'm not sure if the disc actually ever makes it to rotate perfectly about it's COM in flight. I think it also spirals the COP. What is interesting about the Aerobie Epic's rotation about it's asymmetrical COM, is that the asymmetrical rotation reduces drag to increase distance.

You will notice the rotating gyroscope precesses and wobbles around in a cone shape like the disc images in the Innova site. When the force is applied downward the gyro nutates/wobbles in the direction of the spin downward into the cone. When the force is applied upward the gyro nutates/wobbles in the direction opposite of the spin upward into a cone. This is the same effect as the retrograde precession we consider turn vs fade when the COP is on the front or back end of the disc flipping the direction of precession mid during flight, and the wobble can flip direction as well during flight.
220px-Gyroscope_precession.gif




*This is just like my conception of what happens man.*
 
http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/fairway-drivers/speed-7/teebird.html
The spin rate also varies or jerks/wobbles even when it's rotating on it's symmetrical axis without intermediary axis wobble. This is due to the forward direction vector with spin and leverage at release as the disc is rotating around your finger/the disc's edge, instead of the initial rotation being at the disc's center of mass. The disc's rotation will spirally creep inward to rotate closer to it's center of mass after release. I'm not sure if the disc actually ever makes it to rotate perfectly about it's COM in flight. I think it also spirals the COP. What is interesting about the Aerobie Epic's rotation about it's asymmetrical COM, is that the asymmetrical rotation reduces drag to increase distance.

This part of your analysis is incorrect. As soon as the disc leaves your hand it is instantly rotating around the center of mass. There is no migration of the spin axis from where you were gripping the disc at the edge to the center. As soon as you let go of the disc, it is instantly rotating around the center.

If the disc were rotating around any other point, the momentum of the disc would be continually changing which can't happen.
 
This part of your analysis is incorrect. As soon as the disc leaves your hand it is instantly rotating around the center of mass. There is no migration of the spin axis from where you were gripping the disc at the edge to the center. As soon as you let go of the disc, it is instantly rotating around the center.

If the disc were rotating around any other point, the momentum of the disc would be continually changing which can't happen.
Disagree, I think instantaneous COM rotation without a rebound nutation is impossible. Also the disc is continually changing in flight. If the disc was actually spinning around it's COM it wouldn't be moving forward.
R D Lorenz said:
Spin modulation is seen on both magnetometers and sun sensors at ∼6.5 Hz. Modulation envelope varies due to the slow precession of the spin axis during flight.

For the flight shown in figures 4 and 5, the sensor data around 1 s after release were best fitted with an elevation of 70◦ (i.e., spin axis was 20◦ from vertical) and an azimuth of 120◦ (i.e., the spin axis was tilted towards WNW). If the disc was flying horizontally in an ESE direction, it would therefore have a 20◦ angle of attack (see figure 8 for the relationship of the body sensor axes to lift and drag, and the definition of angle of attack and flight path angle).

At ∼2.5 s, shortly before impact, the attitude has precessed due to the disc's pitch moment. The best-fit attitude has an elevation of 60◦ and a heading of 150◦. This corresponds to a precession of about 14◦ in total. Inspection of the flight data suggests that this change occurred principally between 1.5 s and 2.5 s into the flight, and there was a slight change in the opposite direction immediately after release.

The radial accelerometer is spin modulated as expected about its zero value of 170 DN, though with some twice-per-rotation nutation signal just after launch. Hummel has similarly observed nutation in the first second or so of Frisbee flight—the nutation is caused by the angular momentum vector imparted by the thrower being misaligned with the axis of maximum moment of inertia. Energy dissipation, either by flexing of the disc or by aerodynamic forces, tends to damp this nutation quickly. The axial accelerometer shows spin modulation (coning) due to sensor misalignment with principal axis, about a near-constant flight signal of ∼1.3g.

Figure 7 shows the record from the microphone sensor on the upper surface near the rim of the disc. This too shows a spin modulation, as the microphone sweeps round from leading to trailing side, suggesting it responds to the airflow immediately adjacent to the disc surface. The modulation varies somewhat throughout the flight due to the variation in flight speed and the angle of attack.

The determination of the spin axis and phase of a rotating vehicle is of course a standard problem in spacecraft attitude dynamics, and a combination of sun sensor and magnetometer is often used. A major difference here is that the spin axis of a Frisbee in flight is being precessed rapidly, whereas the generally very small disturbance torques in space mean a spacecraft is likely to maintain a constant spin axis and rate over periods of weeks, and a variety of filtering approaches can be used to estimate the attitude. As one example, ground software used sensors on the DARPASAT satellite spinning at 20 rpm to generate attitude estimates of better than 1◦ from 2 min of data, i.e. 40 spin periods. The discs here can only be considered to have a pseudoconstant attitude for around five spin periods. (It may be noted in passing that sensor data on DARPASAT, a vehicle three–four orders of magnitude higher in cost than the instrumented disc, also show nutation and coning signals.)

Modest spin modulation is therefore evident in its flight data (e.g. at one point in flight 6, the reading varies 20–45; later the variation is 25–70).

Figure 9 shows the radial accelerometer record towards the end of flight, with magnetometer 1 overlain as a phase reference. It can be seen that the acceleration peaks before the magnetometer, indicating a particular heading. However, within four spin periods (∼0.6 s) the phase reverses, with the acceleration peaking after the magnetometer. This does not indicate a 180◦ turn in flight, but rather the changing dominance of the two terms that contribute to the radial acceleration (D cos(α) − L sin(α))/M, where M is the mass of the disc (0.26 kg) and other terms are defined in figure 8. Usingalinearfit(Cl =0.2045+0.0495α)totheliftcoefficient data of Potts and Crowther [3], and a parabolic fit to the drag coefficient, namely Cd = 0.118 + 0.0069α + 0.0007α2, the net radial force coefficient Cd cos(α) − Cl sin(α) can be calculated, and is shown in figure 9(b).

It is seen that this function has a maximum value at a modest angle of attack (∼8◦, coincidentally close to the angle at which a disc has zero pitch moment, i.e. flies in trim). Between 20◦ and 35◦, the function decreases rapidly and becomes negative. It is this change of sign that is responsible for the change in phase of the radial acceleration signal.
 
:confused:

I don't understand what you mean by this. If I ride a bicycle the wheel it is spinning and moving forward at the same time?
The wheel is not freely spinning, unless it's spinning out.
 
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