What do you consider a putt?

[demon102]

I'd say when I'm in putting stance.

 

[ejvogie]

Per the PDGA, a putt is defined by how close you are to the target. Putts have additional restrictions regarding what type of follow through motions are allowed (compared to throws from the tee or other, non-putt throws from a stance).

From PDGA Rule 802.04 D:

"Putting: Any throw from within 10 meters of the target, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the target, is a putt. [...] "

http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-...ic-rules-of-play/80204-throwing-from-a-stance

There are no supplemental definitions that include throws from >10m as putts. In practice, people will call a throw a putt depending on the stance/technique employed during the throw...even if the throw is from a mark/lie that's more than 10m from the target. I understand that sentiment.

(I know what you're thinking, and yes: I am fun at parties.)

So all they're saying is that anything within 10M is a putt. They haven't precluded anything farther away from being a putt (at least not in the portion of the rule book you linked). Seeing as they haven't defined anything past 10M, I'm arguing inclusion by way of omission.

 

[Lewis]

I would consider it a putt if I actually take a putting stance.

This. It's more about the form you use than the disc you use.

 

[Agricolae]

For the purposes of using a stats tracking app, "putts" = throws from within the 10m circle.

For general purposes, I'm "putting" anytime I'm in my own version(s) of a putting stance and trying to put the disc in the basket.

I don't understand how you'd get any useful statistical information by considering all attempts at the basket from 0'-75'+ as being equivalent.

 

[ThrowBot]

So all they're saying is that anything within 10M is a putt. They haven't precluded anything farther away from being a putt (at least not in the portion of the rule book you linked). Seeing as they haven't defined anything past 10M, I'm arguing inclusion by way of omission.

That's true that they don't explicitly exclude throws >10m from being "putts". However, the next few sentences of that rule address the additional stance/balance requirements that only apply to putts. The language isn't firm either way, but per one interpretation you could get called for a stance violation if you throw a "falling putt" (aka jump putt, putt-step, whatever) from outside of the 10m circle.

In that sense, it behooves the player to have a more exclusive definition of what constitutes a putt. If you say "I'm putting" even though your mark is 12m from the target, a noob might open the rule book and say "Putting is governed under Rule 804.02 D...

Supporting point contact closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc after the disc has been released is a stance violation. The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the target.

...So then you can't take a step after your release your "putt"? Even from outside of 10m?

In reality I don't think anyone would call it like that. The general understanding of how the 10m circle rule works is pretty well understood (actually better than the rule book explains it, although there may be FAQ or something else that helps to elaborate on the rule).

 

[bradharris]

That's true that they don't explicitly exclude throws >10m from being "putts". However, the next few sentences of that rule address the additional stance/balance requirements that only apply to putts. The language isn't firm either way, but per one interpretation you could get called for a stance violation if you throw a "falling putt" (aka jump putt, putt-step, whatever) from outside of the 10m circle.

In that sense, it behooves the player to have a more exclusive definition of what constitutes a putt. If you say "I'm putting" even though your mark is 12m from the target, a noob might open the rule book and say "Putting is governed under Rule 804.02 D...

...So then you can't take a step after your release your "putt"? Even from outside of 10m?

In reality I don't think anyone would call it like that. The general understanding of how the 10m circle rule works is pretty well understood (actually better than the rule book explains it, although there may be FAQ or something else that helps to elaborate on the rule).

The PDGA defines a "putt" strictly for the purpose of applying a special set of rules for throws within 10m.

However, this discussion is all about the statistical definition of a putt which can be completely different. Unless the PDGA starts mandating that we count our putts, the two definitions are entirely different.

 

[ThrowBot]

The PDGA defines a "putt" strictly for the purpose of applying a special set of rules for throws within 10m.

However, this discussion is all about the statistical definition of a putt which can be completely different. Unless the PDGA starts mandating that we count our putts, the two definitions are entirely different.

Fair point. That's definitely the way it works colloquially (as this thread demonstrates). I'm of the opinion that we should standardize definitions, rather than having a "rules putt" and a "whatever you want to call a putt". Unfortunately I can't think of a catchy/accurate term for the longer range attempts that most folks call putts. Maybe "target shot" since you're trying to get the disc in the target (compared to a lay-up, where you aren't).

For statistical purposes, I would probably break "target shots" into a handful of distance ranges:

0-10' : Make. Them. All.
10-20' : Should make 'em all, but in reality might be in the 95% range.
20-30' : Sketchier, might make 50%.
30-50' : Occasional make, not high percentage tho.
>50' : Definite bonus if I hit from this range!

To me those stats would be a lot more useful than just lumping together all "putts" (by any definition). A 2' drop in is in a vastly different statistical category from a 9.5m throw.

 

[ODRB]

Here's what Climo said:

Here are some general putting goals I've set up for any player:
15 footers – you need to hit every one.
20 footers you need to hit 80%.
25 footers – you need to hit more than half. And try and make at least half of your 30 footers.
Make anything outside 30 feet and it's a bonus whether you're a pro or an am.

 

[ThrowBot]

Here's what Climo said:
[...]
Make anything outside 30 feet and it's a bonus whether you're a pro or an am.

I don't agree that anything outside of 30' is a bonus. For me it probably is, but I know some pretty dang good putters and they are at about 50% from 30-40'. In that competitive setting, hitting a 35 footer isn't a bonus, it's necessary to keep pace with the big dogs.

I find it especially surprising that Climo said that, since he obviously competes at a waaaay higher level than I do. When did he say that? It might have been more applicable back in the 90's with old-timey baskets.

Also, David lost a nice zone recently, so I'm not sure he's trustworthy

 

[Keller]

When I take a putting stance and my goal is to put it in the basket. For me that's around 70ft.

If it makes you feel better to not call it a putt outside the circle and it's just an upshot you can drop in to pad your ego, then knock yourself out.

 

[ThrowBot]

When I take a putting stance and my goal is to put it in the basket. For me that's around 70ft.

If it makes you feel better to not call it a putt outside the circle and it's just an upshot you can drop in to pad your ego, then knock yourself out.

You must be playing some boring courses. My intent to throw into the basket vs. laying up has a lot to do with lines & the green, not just distance.

If I'm looking 50' downhill to this pin:

...you better believe I'm laying it up. Sorry for padding my ego, but in my defense it will also lower my score 19 times out of 20.

 

[ThrowBot]

Sorry; I didn't mean to sound like that much of a dick.

My point is just that golf strategy sometimes dictates that you lay up. In some cases I see laying up as a sign of strength, not a weakness. However, that's not really the point of this thread.

 

[ODRB]

When I take a putting stance and my goal is to put it in the basket. For me that's around 70ft.

If it makes you feel better to not call it a putt outside the circle and it's just an upshot you can drop in to pad your ego, then knock yourself out.

 

[bradharris]

Fair point. That's definitely the way it works colloquially (as this thread demonstrates). I'm of the opinion that we should standardize definitions, rather than having a "rules putt" and a "whatever you want to call a putt". Unfortunately I can't think of a catchy/accurate term for the longer range attempts that most folks call putts. Maybe "target shot" since you're trying to get the disc in the target (compared to a lay-up, where you aren't).

The only reason to formally define a putt is for the application of rules related to putting. There is no PDGA mandate the putts be tracked. The person tracking their putts is doing so for their own good. If each person has a different definition for what they record as a putt, so be it.

If you want to track all of your "target shots" at varying ranges, I'm certainly not going to stop you.

 

[Keller]

You must be playing some boring courses. My intent to throw into the basket vs. laying up has a lot to do with lines & the green, not just distance.

If I'm looking 50' downhill to this pin:

...you better believe I'm laying it up. Sorry for padding my ego, but in my defense it will also lower my score 19 times out of 20.

Your reading comprehension needs a bit of tweaking. I said; When I take a putting stance and my goal is to put it in the basket.

If I'm laying up, my intent is to get close, it's a lay up, not a putt.

Carry on

 

[DiscinFiend]

Three things:
(1) Throwing my putter from a (2) putting stance with (3) intent to go in the basket.

I concur

 

[TYVEK]

Here's what Climo said:

Here are some general putting goals I've set up for any player:
15 footers – you need to hit every one.
20 footers you need to hit 80%.
25 footers – you need to hit more than half. And try and make at least half of your 30 footers.
Make anything outside 30 feet and it's a bonus whether you're a pro or an am.

I agree with what somebody else said about this quote, when climo was in his prime this was probably fairly accurate. Climo was no slouch when it came to putting, he was a good putter, BUT Mcbeth, Wysocki, Locastro, and a few others have surpassed what Climo used to do as far as putting goes. Those guys have raised the bar to the point where their competitors NEED to be hitting 80%(at least) of the putts from 50' and in to stay in the game. it is just unreal watching them nailing these long putts as if they were only 20 feet away.

 

[Timber]

My first thought was throwing with minimal hip and upper body rotation but "Putting Stance" covers it for most players.

 

[zontar]

if I make a 40 footer, it's a putt. If I miss, it's a layup.....

 

[dashiellx]

The only reason to formally define a putt is for the application of rules related to putting. There is no PDGA mandate the putts be tracked. The person tracking their putts is doing so for their own good. If each person has a different definition for what they record as a putt, so be it.

If you want to track all of your "target shots" at varying ranges, I'm certainly not going to stop you.

I certainly understand this POV. But to expand on the discussion, to have comparable stats across the sport what defines a putt needs to be standard. I don't think DG will ever be as stats driven as other sports, but for example slugging %, WHIP, VORP are all standardized so you can compare players across the league and decades.