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What is Par?

Many of us do. Though we use the word "par", this should be thought of more as a scorekeeping shorthand, than actually par.

I completely agree that par, in association with score keeping, is merely a useful convenience. It has no actual effect on the score you take in normal stroke play (Stableford scoring, etc. would change that.)

However, there is an ongoing argument about what the assigned par communicates about the hole.

In accordance with the traditions and institutional knowledge that carried over from golf (ball golf, traditional golf, whatever), I submit that most pars are set based on the lines the designer intended to create when they put the hole in, and therefore how many throws the designer intended that one should take to reach the green (+2).

Otherwise almost every par in disc golf would be one less, because "errorless" play implies you get to the green AND make your putt. (Unless there is some "expected length of made putt" I'm missing out on).

But, by the actual guidelines made by the PDGA, somehow we are supposed to be deriving "errorless" play from "most likely score" by a player of a specific rating. I don't think this really holds water, but other, reasonable, minds differ.
 
"Reach the green and two-putt" was never part of the idea of par in disc golf, nor how disc golf was ever played. We don't have a green. From the earliest days, the last two throws were to get within the distance where you will make the putt. See the DVD "Disc Golf Fundamentals, Volume 1 featuring 'The Champ' Ken Climo with new reigning World Champion Dave Feldberg".
 
"Reach the green and two-putt" was never part of the idea of par in disc golf, nor how disc golf was ever played. We don't have a green. From the earliest days, the last two throws were to get within the distance where you will make the putt. See the DVD "Disc Golf Fundamentals, Volume 1 featuring 'The Champ' Ken Climo with new reigning World Champion Dave Feldberg".

I understand I don't have the depth of historical knowledge that you and many others here have.

But what I do have is some quite old disc courses minutes from my house. Cornwallis Road Park is 5 minutes from me and was installed in mid 80s (88 according to DGCR but the kiosk says earlier). Valley Springs was installed in 92. Much like all of the older courses, the original holes are all par 3s.

It seems highly doubtful to me that a 165 foot hole, slightly downhill, with a wide tunnel to the basket wasn't designed in a way that a good throw ended up at the basket, well inside the circle. This is Valley Springs #1, I believe the white tees were first.

Essentially all of the original holes at both courses are like this. Cornwallis Rd much more so. With almost none of the holes being over 200 feet.

Now, Valley Springs is longer, and obviously discs have gotten longer overall, but look at the distances, nearly all of them are reachable with mids or lower speed fairways by someone with a moderate arm.

As a side note, it seems a tad picayune to complain that "disc golf doesn't have greens". We have a circle. We commonly keep track of circle 2 as a statistic. Essentially everyone understands that "green" is commonly used to indicate the area in which we take makeable putts. I'm guessing you were not confused by what I meant, so I'm not sure what the point of the complaint was. Saying that the overwhelming majority of par 3 holes are designed in such a way that, from the appropriate tee, you have access to a shot which you should be able to execute that will get you inside circle 1 seems fairly unassailable to me.
 

Saying that the overwhelming majority of par 3 holes are designed in such a way that, from the appropriate tee, you have access to a shot which you should be able to execute that will get you inside circle 1 seems fairly unassailable to me.
What you said is true, but it's the old "this works most of the time, it must be the truth" fallacy. (Which, by the way, also can be used to justify all-par-3; no matter the difficulty.)

Sure, the vast majority of par 3s do offer a chance to get within putting range in one throw. The vast majority also offer the possibility of getting a birdie. Nothing wrong with that.

However, at the short end, there are holes that offer such a high probability of getting a two that a two becomes the score expected of an expert. These are par 2s according to the definition.

At the long end, there are holes where experts can expect to drive to a place where they can almost always get up and down in 2 more, but no one can throw to where they expect to putt the second throw into the basket. These are par 3s by the definition. Experts would not be expected to get a 4 unless they made an error, so they are not par 4s. These holes are unbirdieable pars 3s that - in some people's opinion - shouldn't be allowed to exist, but par 3s nevertheless.
 
Until everyone in the disc golf world can come to an agreement on what a fair vs unfair gap/ob is and actually defines it, I don't think par has a place in disc golf.


The amount of work/data to achieve this would be immense. I've posted this before like 8 years ago and I still don't think those questions have been answered. I think people are working towards a consensus, but it's going to take a long time before we see the results. There is still too much regional/individual course designer bias in the sport.
 
Until everyone in the disc golf world can come to an agreement on what a fair vs unfair gap/ob is and actually defines it, I don't think par has a place in disc golf.


The amount of work/data to achieve this would be immense. I've posted this before like 8 years ago and I still don't think those questions have been answered. I think people are working towards a consensus, but it's going to take a long time before we see the results. There is still too much regional/individual course designer bias in the sport.
OK: Any gap or OB is fair, because everyone plays the same hole. The only way for something to be unfair is if a biased entity purposefully changes things for different players.

Next problem?
 
OK: Any gap or OB is fair, because everyone plays the same hole. The only way for something to be unfair is if a biased entity purposefully changes things for different players.

Next problem?
Unrealistic/luck factor. Unfair was a poor choice of words.

Par for all skill levels can't accurately be calculated until disc golf determines what these skill levels are capable of.

Fwiw you and I went through this years ago. Hole 4 brp. You thought it was a good hole. I thought it was a good looking hole, but not a good hole
 
What you said is true, but it's the old "this works most of the time, it must be the truth" fallacy. (Which, by the way, also can be used to justify all-par-3; no matter the difficulty.)

Sure, the vast majority of par 3s do offer a chance to get within putting range in one throw. The vast majority also offer the possibility of getting a birdie. Nothing wrong with that.

However, at the short end, there are holes that offer such a high probability of getting a two that a two becomes the score expected of an expert. These are par 2s according to the definition.

At the long end, there are holes where experts can expect to drive to a place where they can almost always get up and down in 2 more, but no one can throw to where they expect to putt the second throw into the basket. These are par 3s by the definition. Experts would not be expected to get a 4 unless they made an error, so they are not par 4s. These holes are unbirdieable pars 3s that - in some people's opinion - shouldn't be allowed to exist, but par 3s nevertheless.

My "expected" score on Valley Springs hole #1 is a 3. I can look at my historical scores and see that.

But my errorless score is a 2. If I execute shots which I am quite capable of making, I get a 2.

Now, some of this is semantics. "What does errorless mean?" But, to the extent that you can only tell me what errorless means by looking at statistics, and not by assessing what shots someone should be capable of making, I'd submit that the word errorless doesn't actually have meaning.

Regardless, use of the word errorless in context of setting par is very confusing. Given a hole design that gives me a line to the hole that is comfortably within the bounds of my skillset, then the common understanding of errorless would be getting to putting range and then making the putt. If I don't do that, I'll consider myself to not have executed my intended shots. In other words, I will have made an error.

In addition, you are using the phrase "expected score of an expert", but that doesn't make sense in the context of setting par. I would hope that par is not the expected score of an expert but rather the expected score of the skill level of player the hole is designed for. A red level tee should have a par set for players who are … 825 rated? 850? 875? 899? (Honestly, I don't quite understand why the tee colors and colors assigned to the tournament skill tiers don't line up.)
 
Unrealistic/luck factor. Unfair was a poor choice of words.

Par for all skill levels can't accurately be calculated until disc golf determines what these skill levels are capable of.

Fwiw you and I went through this years ago. Hole 4 brp. You thought it was a good hole. I thought it was a good looking hole, but not a good hole
Sorry, I like to jump on using "unfair" to mean other things.

Not knowing what size of gap can be hit is certainly a limitation on setting par based on physical characteristics. That is no reason to abandon any effort to set par.

Besides, we do have very good knowledge about how far each skill set can throw under normal disc golf conditions. That's enough to set par for all but the strangest holes. And even if we can't decide between two pars for a hole with a maybe-too-narrow gap, we can get within one. That's better than no par at all.

Fortunately for holes like 444 at BRP (whose fairway is too narrow, but the geometry still allows it to test player abilities) even if we can't predict how many players will hit the gap, we can look at how many players have gotten each score and set par according to the Par by Scoring Distribution method. Par 4 for skill levels represented by a rating of 900 and up, and par 6 for skill levels represented by a rating below 800.
 
My "expected" score on Valley Springs hole #1 is a 3. I can look at my historical scores and see that.

But my errorless score is a 2. If I execute shots which I am quite capable of making, I get a 2.

Now, some of this is semantics. "What does errorless mean?" But, to the extent that you can only tell me what errorless means by looking at statistics, and not by assessing what shots someone should be capable of making, I'd submit that the word errorless doesn't actually have meaning.

Regardless, use of the word errorless in context of setting par is very confusing. Given a hole design that gives me a line to the hole that is comfortably within the bounds of my skillset, then the common understanding of errorless would be getting to putting range and then making the putt. If I don't do that, I'll consider myself to not have executed my intended shots. In other words, I will have made an error.

In addition, you are using the phrase "expected score of an expert", but that doesn't make sense in the context of setting par. I would hope that par is not the expected score of an expert but rather the expected score of the skill level of player the hole is designed for. A red level tee should have a par set for players who are … 825 rated? 850? 875? 899? (Honestly, I don't quite understand why the tee colors and colors assigned to the tournament skill tiers don't line up.)

"Expected" and "errorless" are both in the definition for a reason; they work together. One prevents us from using lucky throws to set par to low, the other prevents us from using all kinds of slop for setting par to high.

"Errorless" is difficult to pin down, but we can eliminate some things. It's not "perfect" or the word used would have been "perfect". Likewise, it's not "the best throws a player is capable of".

One way to think of it is that the errorless throws are the throws that don't cause either kind of strong emotional reaction.

Your last paragraph is covered in the Guidelines by the table of Experts for Skill Levels and Divisions.
 
Among other things, I find "errorless" superfluous, because I'm not expecting an expert to make an error.
 
In accordance with the traditions and institutional knowledge that carried over from golf (ball golf, traditional golf, whatever), I submit that most pars are set based on the lines the designer intended to create when they put the hole in, and therefore how many throws the designer intended that one should take to reach the green (+2).
Things work best imo if we define "close range" (intentionally not using the term "green") as a considerably larger distance than either of the circles for most players.
 
Things work best imo if we define "close range" (intentionally not using the term "green") as a considerably larger distance than either of the circles for most players.
Well, perhaps we come here to the crux of the issue. It occurs to me that at the core of the debate is the question of the difference between how a hole is designed to be played vs. what score people typically take on it.

I'd submit that it's rare that a design on a hole doesn't include the idea of a specific number of shots that get you to C1. You might also design "safe" plays into the hole, but I'd submit that, for a given skill level, the design almost never fails to give a designed line, or set of lines, to C1.

When this design element fails we tend to either identify the hole as poorly designed, or say that a player or shot "breaks" the hole.

When we look at a description of a hole, step into the tee box, we expect par to indicate the design of the hole. This holds true for all skill levels. In other words, a 1000 rated player playing a white level course/tee box has access to lines that weren't designed into the hole for 900 rated players, but the par doesn't change.

Now, when viewed through the lens of tournament disc golf, one is going to say that the par should change if the MPO field is going to be playing that hole. That's all well and good. But saying that par should be set based on statistical median for a certain rating seems wrong headed when we are talking about setting par in general.

For 99.999% of play, that's not what par communicates. It communicates the designed play from that tee box. That's what goes on the tee signs on the course. That's what goes on the DGCR course page.

if you have an island hole on your course, it won't matter that the expected score on it is a 4 (because it's a very hard landing area to stick). That's not what players expect the tee sign to communicate.

If you have a hole that has thick rough such that close range shots (rather than shots that get to the circle) don't typically net you a par, players don't expect this to be communicated by the par on the tee sign.

If you have a basket that's a putter shot away in a wide open park, players don't expect that to be communicated by the par.

How hard or easy it is to execute the designed line isn't the useful thing when you step onto the tee box. The designed play is what you need.

Sure, once you play the course many times you will start to get a sense of holes that you typically make 2 on (easy holes) and holes that you typically take a 4 on (hard holes), but you don't need par to know that. You already know the course. The "birdie" or "bogey" tag applied to this is scoring convenience at this point.
 
In Ball (or Traditional) Golf, Par is relevant to a complicated Handicap system. All Am level tournaments use what is known as the Golf Handicap Index Number (GHIN) which is determined through a formula of scores. I'm currently an 18, so if I play against a 'Scratch' golfer, I get one stroke per hole. GHIN is also relevant to the course you are playing. If I were to play a championship course, or if I were to play from the back tees, I would be awarded extra strokes. If I play on an easy 'muni' track, I would receive less strokes against stated par. So, in the end, Par almost becomes arbitrary. What is relevant is the difference between the golfers against the stated Par.
 
In Ball (or Traditional) Golf, Par is relevant to a complicated Handicap system. All Am level tournaments use what is known as the Golf Handicap Index Number (GHIN) which is determined through a formula of scores. I'm currently an 18, so if I play against a 'Scratch' golfer, I get one stroke per hole. GHIN is also relevant to the course you are playing. If I were to play a championship course, or if I were to play from the back tees, I would be awarded extra strokes. If I play on an easy 'muni' track, I would receive less strokes against stated par. So, in the end, Par almost becomes arbitrary. What is relevant is the difference between the golfers against the stated Par.
Par isn't actually relevant for calculating your handicap, how many strokes you get against your competitor, or what holes you get them on. How you score vs the course rating, weighted by the slope of the course will give you an individual score to put into the handicap system.

The rating and slope are determined based on assessment of the course difficulty for a prototype scratch and bogey golfer. In essence course rating is the "expected" score for a scratch golfer. This, the course rating, is what is comparable to the official disc golf par, which theoretically is the expected score for the hole.

Comparable, but not really the same. It's the score expected for the prototypical scratch golfer from that set of tees. Bogey golfers would be expected to score around 18 strokes worse than the rating (as modified by slope).

In addition, because the calculation allows for partial strokes, it's much more applicable. In other words, the expected integer score, hole by hole, for a scratch golfer might be even par, but the course rating might still be 3 strokes under the par. This would account for things like a 16.5% expected birdie rate on every single hole for a scratch golfer (just as hypothetical).
 

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