What is Par?

[ERicJ]

Well, I think players of all skill levels should be able to birdie a typical par 3. [...]
On an open hole, I would think anything 450 or less is a par 3.

How many MA4, MA3, or even MA2 players are birdieing (2) a 400-450' hole?
Don't even get me started on the MG1, MS1 or the FW#, or juniors....

 

[solomon.trenton]

How many MA4, MA3, or even MA2 players are birdieing (2) a 400-450' hole?
Don't even get me started on the MG1, MS1 or the FW#, or juniors....

what do all those initials mean

 

[ERicJ]

what do all those initials mean

Player division codes. See: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09PlayerDivisionsGrid.pdf

 

[ejvogie]

what do all those initials mean

Novice, Recreational, Intermediate, Advanced Grandmaster, Advanced Senior Grandmaster, and Amateur Women, respectively.

 

[BENFTS]

if anybody has ever played I5 at DeLaveaga Park a par 3, than all the holes you will ever come across will be par 3's from than on. i have pared this hole less than 10 times. the reason it's called I5 is because everyone says "I fived it" i never call anything a par 4 unless the course sign says it is. even still i hold out knowing that most par 4 hole i have played are nothing like I5.

 

[ERicJ]

if anybody has ever played I5 at DeLaveaga Park a par 3, than all the holes you will ever come across will be par 3's from than on. i have pared this hole less than 10 times. the reason it's called I5 is because everyone says "I fived it" i never call anything a par 4 unless the course sign says it is. even still i hold out knowing that most par 4 hole i have played are nothing like I5.

It's not because it's long like "Interstate 5" (note logo on the sign)?

 

[BENFTS]

no, not the case it is called that because after the 400' drive you put up to get into approach range you then have to fight through a very dense group of trees and have to contend with a steep cliffs on the other side. the basket is surrounded by trees and there is no clear line from more than 40' away. result a score of 5. ask any local and they will tell you it's called I5 for that reason despite its resemblance to interstate 5 due to its length.

i guess you could ask the TD if you wanted info from someone other than just a local. also great job picking up the I5 sign on the tee sign.

 

[harr0140]

In my opinion I agree with par being set at what only the top 10% of people can do. If you look at ball golf, only the top players in the world break par on a routine basis. Now they are also playing from tees that would make the average golfer cringe. The distance needed with the obstacles in the way etc make par impossible for most people if they were to play from the same tee. (It's another topic, but multiple tees should be mandatory in my opinion when building courses. Even if it was just another sign set up to 75% of the length of the hole from the back tees) My guess would be that the percentage of players breaking par in ball golf is 10%. The average golfer should not be shooting par in my opinion. I feel the same should hold true in disc golf. Now if the top tier guys are rated above 1000, then my guess is that a 1000 rated player should be shooting around par, sometime over sometimes under. Par is totally an arbitrary number anyways, it just gives some level of expectation for people.

 

[bazkitcase5]

so in golf, how is par set when you include these shorter tees?

does it change for the level of player intended to play that particular tee or is par always set for the expert player, regardless of which tee is being played?

 

[harr0140]

Par is typically the same from all tees, (On occassion however, what may be a par 4 for the men is a par 5 for the women, but this usually doesn't happen that often, because the goal in golf course design is typically to be somewhere between par 70-72 to be a regulation course. If par is more like 54-60 that is generally considered a pitch and putt or a Par 3 course. Similar to DG, par is what it would be expected for a specific caliber of player to be able to shoot, if it takes them two shots to get near the green (I dont know what the distance would be axactly), then it is considered par after two putts have been made. Putting in golf versus disc golf is very different in my eyes. It is much easier to 1 Putt in disc golf than it is to 1 putt in real golf) However it is up to the player to gage their abilities and play from the appropriate tees. I think this is a perfect way to speed up play and make the game mor eenjoyable for all. Rather than people thinking they need to play from the whites or blues otherwise they are considered wimps. The tees you play should be determined by your handicap. Rather than just saying the red white blue or black tees, the reds are for women and handicaps greater than 30, the whites are for 20-29 handicaps, and the blues are 10-19, and the back tees are only for those that are 9 or less handicap. Now these numbers are arbitrary, and the other issue comes into play when you have a 65 year old who is a 5 handicap. Well should they be playing the back tees . . . no they should at worst be playing the step up, and all the ratings and slopes account for that. Now there is a huge difference in abilities going from a 5 handicap to a 10, but there isn't that much difference in ability from 20-25 or 30-35. I am the handicap chairman at my club so I am up on how it works. Basically if the rating of the blue tees is 68.2 and the rating of the white tees (shorter tees) is 66.2. If you were to play the whites ( and I play the blues) your handicap needs to be adjusted by 2 shots. So if you were a 12 handicap you would only get 10 shots. If you wanted you could still play the blues and not scrifice those 2 shots, but more than likely it is worth it! It is an adjustment that makes the course equivalent no matter what tee you play from. Is it right 100% of the time no, but noones game is always right on where it should be so how can you know what the cause of the discrepancy actually is.

 

[bazkitcase5]

Because disc golf courses can be considerably different, due to the amount of trees, shule, etc. and because there is not enough $$ to go in and make courses exactly as you want them, it is very difficult to have "handicaps" in disc golf that would apply to more than one course

However, we have the PDGA player ratings, which I see that you have been learning about. Unfortunately, as a growing sport, every course does not have a SSA value, so players can not easily figure out how they are shooting, unless they become PDGA members and get a rating (which is one of their main benefits, so no way could they let players get these for free, because then most people would have less of a reason to join the PDGA in the first place)

The PDGA is working to standardize the sport with colored tees and pars that make sense for everybody, but with all the new courses and players, it will take time for it to catch on. As posted on another thread by myself:

The PDGA tee guidelines list the following, with my interpetations for better understanding:

Gold Tees - basically the toughest tees... the tees where a gold level player (1000 rated) also known as a scratch golfer (in golf terms) would be expected to shoot par - to shoot under on these tees is to play like a top pro - very few courses have true gold tees

Blue Tees - basically the advanced level tees or a 950 rated player... an advanced level player would be expected to shoot par on this course from these tees - to shoot under would be to play like an good advanced player or a weak pro, or if you shoot way under (very low scores), maybe a gold level player - on most courses on this site that have long and short tees, the long tees would likely fit here more times than not...

White tees - basically the intermediate level tees or a 900 rated player... an intermediate level player would be expected to shoot par on this course from these tees - most courses with short tees would likely fit here

Red tees - basically the novice/recreation/casual player level tees or 850 rated player - these players would be expected to shoot par on this course from these tees - these would likely be the beginner tees on courses already considered pitch and putt, meant to help newer players learn the sport without being too difficult

you can also go to the following link to check out the tees and how it is suggested that par be set for each type of hole with a specific player skill set in mind for each particular tee
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

 

[optidiscic]

Par is best described to be as what number of premium shots are required to reach the approach putt area plus 2. If it takes one well placed drive then its a 3. If it takes 2 drives it is a 4. It may take a series of accurate placement then 2 drives or something like that in no certain order...S curve or draconian dogleg etc. in these instances it is a 5. I am sure there are courses with 3 or 4 drives needed plus 2 as well. 1200 footer uphills. Distance alone bores me for a par 5. I think placement is far more interesting and garners much more score separation....picture a 500 foot open hole with some danger near the basket only. I suck and throw one 300 but off the fairway and still have a shot if it is open.....An expert could throw a precise 400 foot dead center...I will have a 220 foot approach for a shot at par and he has to nail the 100 foot putt to beat me. I don't think distance is a good measure of par.

 

[solomon.trenton]

Par stand for Pretty Average Redneck. not to offend anyone just having drunkin fun.

 

[ERicJ]

also great job picking up the I5 sign on the tee sign.

Thanks.

BTW: "I five'd it" the one and only time I played it (so far):
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/scorebook.php?vall=1&vcrse=35&mid=519

ERic

 

[Olorin]

From the "Pro Pars" thread--

it also fits in nicely with the borrowed from ball golf concept of par being the number of shots to reach shortrange (in this case inside 130 or so) plus 2 shots from shortrange.

This is the essence of Close Range (CR) Par.

Close Range (CR) Par lengths:
Par 2: 100 ft.
Par 3: 101-500
Par 4: 501-820
Par 5: 821-1140
Par 6: >1141

Score Average (SA) Par:
For a Gold level hole with average foliage, converting the SSA formula backwards to length (based on "effective playing length" vs. "actual length"):
Par 2: <236 ft
Par 3: 237-521
Par 4: 522-806
Par 5: 807-1091
Par 6: >1092

Comparing SA and CR Par lengths:
Max par length of SSA vs. CR
Par 2: 100 vs. 237 ft.
Par 3: 500 vs. 521
Par 4: 820 vs. 806
Par 5: 1140 vs. 1091

So, practically speaking, using CR and SA par will give lengths that are very close.

 

[jace]

Perfecto! Precisely the info I was looking for. THX Olorin!

 

[BENFTS]

Thanks.

BTW: "I five'd it" the one and only time I played it (so far):
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/scorebook.php?vall=1&vcrse=35&mid=519

ERic

dude i had a 15' par put there, hit the chains bounced out and it just rolled down into the ravine. i to fived it that day. i can count the pars i have on that hole on one hand and have played it over 50 times. something always happens.

 

[YonderScott]

Reading these par threads makes my head hurt usually. But I can't see where a 100' hole and a 237' would be the same par. Which by Olorin's last post I'm reading as a par 2. If 237' for a pro is par 2, wouldn't that make the 100' hole a par 1? If your gonna use the whole argument of what a 1000 rated player would shoot, and making par harder to achieve....if you can make 237 in 2 then surely the fair way would be to make 100' a par 1.

 

[harr0140]

a 100' would be about a 1.9 par if you think about it. How often do you hit 100'? Sure you can get a nice layup shot for the 237' and have a 10-20' putt for the par 2, but more often than not you (assuming you are a 1000 rated player) will not ace a 100', you might only have 2-3 feet on a bunch of the putts but you rarely will hit the ace!

 

[Olorin]

I and others view "Par" as the "average" for expert players.

Personally I'm a believer in a one par system. Down with "Rec Par" and "Pro Par"! If "Par" is the standard by which you're going to measure play why confuse and complicate the matter by having two different scales??

ERic

QFT!

And I define "expert" as a 1000 rated player-- the skill level that SSA is based on.