What would you do in this situation.

[GirdleRoc]

I think I understand the rules in this situation but I am curious what other people would do.

I realize step 1 is to throw a better shot.

I threw my drive into a bunch of bushes and my disc ended up under a thick half dome of wood vines. I could get my foot in into the dome but the front of the dome was towards the basket so I couldn't legally take a stance without supporting points in front of the lie.

I ended up taking my stroke and taking relief on the opposite side of the bushes.

Theoretically I could have crawled up on to the wooded vines and thrown but would have disturbed and could have broken the vines. Would that violate the rules in some way?

 

[eric40817]

I think you played it correctly. I dont think you'd be within the rules if you climb up on something though. Theres also something about if taking a stance at your lie creates a danger to you (I think), but doesnt seem to be relevant here.

 

[krupicka]

That could be considered a "solid" obstacle and play under 802.03.E

http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/802-basic-rules-of-play/80203-marking-lie

 

[GirdleRoc]

That could be considered a "solid" obstacle and play under 802.03.E

http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/802-basic-rules-of-play/80203-marking-lie

Solid is probably a group decision but I wouldn't use the word solid. I am really bad at describing things and I don't have a picture. It was a cluster of 1 inch thick vines that was over and behind the disc. That was then surrounded by tons of bushes.

 

[JC17393]

From what I can gather from your description, the way you played it was perfectly valid.

I don't think you could stand on the vines if you believe you'll bend or break them. You have to stand on a playing surface, and something that is going to bend/break under your weight really doesn't qualify.

I also don't think the solid obstacle rule comes into play. I've yet to see a bush that 100% prevented any legal stance from being taken. Prevented comfortable or preferred stances, yes, but not all possible stances. It might have taken some work, and probably wouldn't have yielded much of a throw, but I expect there was a way to take a legal stance. Using optional relief was probably the wise decision in the end.

 

[krupicka]

I've seen plenty of bushes where there are clusters of stalks coming out of the ground which are so tight that the disc on edge can't even get to the playing surface, let alone placing a foot in there without crushing/breaking the stalks. Even then you wouldn't be on the playing surface, but on the now broken stalks.

 

[Steve West]

803.02 Optional Relief and Optional Re-throw
A. Optional Relief. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief. The lie may then be relocated to a new lie which is no closer to the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw shall be added to the player's score.

802.03 Marking The Lie
E. If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, the player may instead mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play.

As long as you took your relief straight back along the line of play (from the target to your disc), you played it right. You can go back as far as you want if you pay the penalty.

If you placed your mini immediately behind the vines, then you could ask the group whether it was a solid obstacle. If they couldn't agree, you could ask the TD after the round and maybe avoid the penalty throw.

 

[Consult20]

I think I understand the rules in this situation but I am curious what other people would do.

I realize step 1 is to throw a better shot.

I threw my drive into a bunch of bushes and my disc ended up under a thick half dome of wood vines. I could get my foot in into the dome but the front of the dome was towards the basket so I couldn't legally take a stance without supporting points in front of the lie.

I ended up taking my stroke and taking relief on the opposite side of the bushes.

Theoretically I could have crawled up on to the wooded vines and thrown but would have disturbed and could have broken the vines. Would that violate the rules in some way?

From what I can gather from your description, the way you played it was perfectly valid.

I don't think you could stand on the vines if you believe you'll bend or break them. You have to stand on a playing surface, and something that is going to bend/break under your weight really doesn't qualify.

I also don't think the solid obstacle rule comes into play. I've yet to see a bush that 100% prevented any legal stance from being taken. Prevented comfortable or preferred stances, yes, but not all possible stances. It might have taken some work, and probably wouldn't have yielded much of a throw, but I expect there was a way to take a legal stance. Using optional relief was probably the wise decision in the end.

If he legitimately could not take a legal stance, he should have been able to take relief behind the bush within 5 meters, in the line of play, with no penalty. It sounds like he took a penalty stroke he didn't have to.

 

[JC17393]

If he legitimately could not take a legal stance, he should have been able to take relief behind the bush within 5 meters, in the line of play, with no penalty. It sounds like he took a penalty stroke he didn't have to.

Not quite. This isn't a casual obstacle, so there's no "within 5 meters" allowed. If you're calling it a solid obstacle, then the mark would go directly behind the obstacle and on the line of play, no further relief given without penalty.

 

[JC17393]

I've seen plenty of bushes where there are clusters of stalks coming out of the ground which are so tight that the disc on edge can't even get to the playing surface, let alone placing a foot in there without crushing/breaking the stalks. Even then you wouldn't be on the playing surface, but on the now broken stalks.

If the disc is wedged in the stalks and not on the playing surface, it's suspended and you'd have to mark with a mini underneath. If the stalks prevent the mini from being placed on the ground, then you mark directly behind the stalks on the first available playing surface. That doesn't necessarily get you out from within the branches of the bushes, but it would give you a place on the playing surface to put a supporting point behind the lie.

 

[Consult20]

Not quite. This isn't a casual obstacle, so there's no "within 5 meters" allowed. If you're calling it a solid obstacle, then the mark would go directly behind the obstacle and on the line of play, no further relief given without penalty.

Crap you're right again, given the scenario he laid out.

 

[Consult20]

If the disc is wedged in the stalks and not on the playing surface, it's suspended and you'd have to mark with a mini underneath. If the stalks prevent the mini from being placed on the ground, then you mark directly behind the stalks on the first available playing surface. That doesn't necessarily get you out from within the branches of the bushes, but it would give you a place on the playing surface to put a supporting point behind the lie.

With or without a penalty in that scenario?

 

[JC17393]

With or without a penalty in that scenario?

If the marker is placed directly behind the stalks/trunk of the bush, no penalty.

I threw together a really crude drawing trying to illustrate the options here.

To play without penalty, you have to find a way to play from the lie represented by the blue line. To play from anywhere on the longer pinkish line, you'd take a penalty for optional relief. Those would be your choices.

 

[bradharris]

Solid is probably a group decision but I wouldn't use the word solid. I am really bad at describing things and I don't have a picture. It was a cluster of 1 inch thick vines that was over and behind the disc. That was then surrounded by tons of bushes.

The intent of the solid obstacle rule is to avoid penalizing players when there is a legitimate obstacle to a legal stance. That sounds like this was the case (climbing onto the vines is not a legal stance because you're not in contact with a playing surface). Since you couldn't take a legal stance where it lies, you should mark the lie at the nearest point on the line of play where you can take a stance, and throw from there with no penalty.

 

[GirdleRoc]

If the disc is wedged in the stalks and not on the playing surface, it's suspended and you'd have to mark with a mini underneath. If the stalks prevent the mini from being placed on the ground, then you mark directly behind the stalks on the first available playing surface. That doesn't necessarily get you out from within the branches of the bushes, but it would give you a place on the playing surface to put a supporting point behind the lie.

My disc was on the ground.

 

[F. Howl]

I wouldn't have ceded a stroke penalty so easily. If I couldn't fit my foot behind my lie, I'd submit the solid obstacle argument, and if they disagreed, ask to take a provisional.

I'm curious....Let's say a consensus can't be reached on a card in this (or similar) situation...at what point can someone call the clock? Does the phrase "playing area is clear" in 804.01-A-3, applies to the lie? It kind of sounds like they're just referring to people in your line...

http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/804-the-throw/80401-excessive-time

 

[bradharris]

I wouldn't have ceded a stroke penalty so easily. If I couldn't fit my foot behind my lie, I'd submit the solid obstacle argument, and if they disagreed, ask to take a provisional.

I'm curious....Let's say a consensus can't be reached on a card in this (or similar) situation...at what point can someone call the clock? Does the phrase "playing area is clear" in 804.01-A-3, applies to the lie? It kind of sounds like they're just referring to people in your line...

http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/804-the-throw/80401-excessive-time

The player can't reasonably arrive at the lie until the group comes up with a consensus on where the lie actually is. So time doesn't start until a decision is made.

 

[ToddL]

Could you have performed a crane maneuver or a kipping push-up and done a quick throw while only one supporting point was on the ground? (Assuming you're outside of 10 meters, of course)

 

[DavidSauls]

Theoretically I could have crawled up on to the wooded vines and thrown but would have disturbed and could have broken the vines. Would that violate the rules in some way?

Well, keep in mind that the rule doesn't require that you not disturb them, only that you disturb them as little as necessary:

A. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

 

[GirdleRoc]

Good point thanks!