What's happening at the Tim Selinske Masters??

[Hampstead]

JohnE! JohnE!

 

[davetherocketguy]

I'd really like to see some of these touring pros run a tourney or two.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Just speaking as someone looking on from the outside it appears to me the following is true for this tourney:

Expectations > requirements

If that's true, then this is an issue the PDGA needs to address and maybe some of the masters who are complaining need to step up a bit to improve the event quality in a more proactive roll rather than echoing McBeth on twitter which believe it or not really solves nothing. I'd be really interested in hearing the opinion and thoughts from the actual TD in response to the criticisms.

Of course take this post with a grain of salt...just some thoughts from an outsider looking in...

 

[eaeastwood]

This was my 3rd Tim Selinske and while I had fun and loved the courses, even Newton, I did have some issues with how the tournament was ran. I have had leagues and C-tiers ran better than this tournament. First off, there was very little water on the courses. Thankfully it wasn't hot otherwise I might have DNF'd. How hard is it to have a couple of water jugs on the course? There was no caddybook or good explanation of how the courses should be played. Honestly this is unacceptable. We did receive 3 separate emails that had some description of how things were played, but there were several holes or incomplete explanation as to what to do in certain situations. For example, hole 14 at Maple Hill Gold, it said if you go OB go to the Drop Zone. Well OB wasn't well defined. Is it all water? We weren't sure of which drop zone to use. The MVP open played a drop zone from one of the other tees and then a drop zone on the road if you went OB again. What happens if you go OB from the last drop zone or if you putt and it goes out of bounds. The information we were provided was very limited did not say. Finally, our 2nd round was an 8am shotgun at Newton and then had to be at Maple Hill by 11:45am for another shotgun start. Steve Dodge said there would be a food vendor on site for lunch, there wasn't. After my first round and getting to Maple Hill, I had 25 minutes to get to my hole before the 2nd shotgun started. I kid you not there were people sprinting to get to their hole as the 2 minute warning was going off. I could pile on about cheap payout or player's pack, but I wouldn't want people to think I was a so-called elite and whining about it. The courses were phenomenal and the weather was perfect. We really dodged a big bullet with Hurricane Dorian missing us completely. I enjoyed myself and glad I went, but there was plenty of things that could have easily been improved and communicated.

 

[Roc-n-KC]

I agree with everything eaeastwood said. In addition, as an am, it would have been nice to have spotters on the courses. My division (MA40) only had 2 spotters all week. One on 15 at Newton and one at 18 Maple Hill for one of our two rounds there.

Also on the Am side, this was a "trophy only" event where trophies were issued only for first place. I feel like at least top 3 should get something for the accomplishment of such a high finish at a PDGA major.

 

[Jay Dub]

I think disc golf tournaments have reached their peak until someone finds a way to pay TDs and other workers.

Like it or not doesn't matter, time is money and running these events takes lots of time.

 

[ru4por]

Let me guess.....no water on the practice rounds?

Jokes aside. Who does not bring water with them to a round? I get the luxury of provided water, but it that really a deal breaker. Entitled pros are ensuring that TD's have little interest in providing space at their events, for them. Both local and touring. It is just not worth the hassle and social media attacks.

 

[Matt B.]

Pssst. People don't care about the Masters fields. Now, that isn't to say they should play on substandard tee pads or dangerous conditions. But, like it or not, the Masters fields are about as valuable as an Am field to the public.

I am going to say to them what I say to Ams when they complain about not getting to play the toughest tees at any event. "You want to play the big boy tees, play with the big boys."

IMO as long as the course wasn't a pitch and putt, you don't really have a lot to complain about. As long as the payout met minimum standards, you can't complain about that. No one wants to film them because they get no views on YouTube, so can't complain about exposure.

Funny thing is that more and more players are aging into the Master's fields, but the numbers STILL say that few people want to actually watch them play.

I guess you can take my comments with an MP50 sized grain of salt, but I didn't read most of the negative comments as having much to do with coverage or Youtube views. Maybe I missed something. I attended Pro Masters Worlds this year and it was overall a great event, but it did not have the feel of a major, either. Maybe that is now an unreasonable expectation, but it wasn't because of Youtube views. It was because of lack of toilets for part of the week, missing tee signs, and playing from gravel tee pads. Still a great event. Maybe us old guys just need to get it through our heads that we don't deserve it.

 

[Matt B.]

This was my fourth US Masters and by far the most fun for me! The courses were great and I really liked Newton Hill for a weak player like myself. 501 was phenomenal and Maple Hill was also fantastic but I do wish we could have played Pyramids in addition to the others. Wormtown is a good brewery with great staff as well as Bucks and we saw a Santana cover band at Rock Bar. Livia's was a great restaurant for breakfast and Mezcal's was fantastic for Mexican. I understand the frustration for the following reasons but it did not affect my play because I came prepared with water, had great cards and got to see a lot of old friends and meet new ones.

Room for improvement,
- no formal player's meeting for the first time ever for me (e.g., I witnessed some confusion from the Pros that played the week before on #3 Maple Hill golds which could have been addressed prior to the event).
- no caddy book.
- Four (4) hour lunch break Saturday for Ams to get to 501 from Maple Hill which made for a long day from 8am - 6:30pm for 6 hours of golf (I made the best of it and watched college football at a restaurant near 501).
- no spotters at Maple Hill for Ams specifically on #11 and #17 long pad over the Christmas trees (possibly due to the work from volunteers the week before which is understandable).
- no Porta Johns at Newton Hill by #1. You had to drive to #7 for a bathroom which several did prior to the rounds at Newton Hill but rumors are others had two deuces on #18 during their round (I assume this was on the PDGA because the TD at Newton Hill was awesome about going over rules, bathroom location, etc, prior to the round).
- the only water at Newton Hill was on #1 and I heard several others ran out of water during the round (I assume this was on the PDGA because the TD at Newton Hill was awesome about going over rules, bathroom location, etc, prior to the round).

No players meeting or caddy book? If that' accurate, it's a pretty serious indicator that some of the criticism is accurate! We get caddy books at a B tier!

 

[filobedo]

Let me guess.....no water on the practice rounds?

Jokes aside. Who does not bring water with them to a round? I get the luxury of provided water, but it that really a deal breaker. Entitled pros are ensuring that TD's have little interest in providing space at their events, for them. Both local and touring. It is just not worth the hassle and social media attacks.

We had incompetent leadership for a several years in my local club and during one of the sanctioned tournaments, water was not available on the course. Although players had filled water bottles prior to the round, we had a player have a heat stroke on his 16th hole of the last round and was hospitalized for five days afterward.

 

[JC17393]

Finally, our 2nd round was an 8am shotgun at Newton and then had to be at Maple Hill by 11:45am for another shotgun start. Steve Dodge said there would be a food vendor on site for lunch, there wasn't. After my first round and getting to Maple Hill, I had 25 minutes to get to my hole before the 2nd shotgun started. I kid you not there were people sprinting to get to their hole as the 2 minute warning was going off.

I was also in the pool that played 8am at Newton and 11:45 at Maple. I managed to stop at a store, grab lunch, eat it, get to Maple, find out the starting time (I had not checked my phone yet), get to my starting hole and get 10 minutes of putting in without rushing at all.

There absolutely was a food vendor at Maple when I arrived. They were set up by the barn right near the PDGA trailer and the Innova tent (they were there all day Sunday as well). At least two of my cardmates got lunch from them. They were praising it, and grumbling (in jest) at having grease on their throwing hand.

 

[DiscgolfStu]

From an outsider's perspective you'd think there was the option to, I dunno, contact the TD directly with a bunch of constructive criticism rather than put the whole thing on blast through social media...but I guess there's not enough drama in that?

 

[Hampstead]

Sometimes it helps to shine a light on problems instead of keeping them hidden in the shadows.

 

[DiscgolfStu]

I could see that, might not see any changes if you're nice about it. But ****, everything is so hysterical these days.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Sometimes it helps to shine a light on problems instead of keeping them hidden in the shadows.

From an outsider's perspective you'd think there was the option to, I dunno, contact the TD directly with a bunch of constructive criticism rather than put the whole thing on blast through social media...but I guess there's not enough drama in that?

Speaking as a TD who has been put on blast because I made a mistake that I owned up to I can honestly say the whole social media "blast" thing is usually a complete d1ck move made by cowards. I was given zero opportunity to make things right before someone went nuts on the Book of Faces even though I had emailed trying to fix my mistake TWO HOURS prior to their drunken rant. And wouldn't ya know it...this rant didn't come from an Am. :|

Now, on the flip side I can see going all "blast" with it if the players have been complaining in multiple messages and they aren't getting anywhere with the powers that be over reasonable complaints. The reality is though, going this route is likely to solve nothing so it's still probably going to be a waste of time.

My opinion is, if you're a pro and are going to put a TD on "blast" you had better have your facts straight and had better tried all other private avenues prior to ranting publicly otherwise you're just going to look like an entitled prick. The best bet? Don't go to the tournament. If it's that bad why waste your time? Even for you so called "pros" this is really just a glorified hobby and you're not making a living at it.

 

[Hampstead]

I could see that, might not see any changes if you're nice about it. But ****, everything is so hysterical these days.

I know of a TD who ran poor tournaments with bare minimum payouts. There always seemed to be issues. This was an area with few events so some folks played just because of a lack of options. After one event, some friends complained on Facebook. I appreciated it because I knew to avoid his events in the future. That's why I said "sometimes".

I'm not advocating for public shaming as a first option or even an option at all for every situation. Just, sometimes...

 

[Casey 1988]

this.

USDGC, Worlds, European Open. that should be it.


too many majors and WAY too many divisions these days. everyone's a winner/participation trophy culture.

But they should have the Masters 40+ play the same course as the Open in my opinion just different devison then make it easier for the rest, they have a Masters devison in golf but it starts at 50+ simply due to the modern tech keeping players with a chance to win an event in 40's due to that. Tech in Disc Golf even the longer discs take more power and at 40 some events are too long for them to get to even a money slot thanks to top level of modern players training to throw minimum of 350-400 feet with a putter and driving really long. There are courses that take skill that are more wooded then long that are the type of course that a 40+ age pro could win but they are fewer . Personally a specific tour for 40+ would be a good Idea at 90% of the same places as the NT and PT for the 40+ pro who is not fully retired and could help generate sales for discs that are older/slower and give people a chance to see these discs action, maybe even get enough demand to bring back some old molds in some brands caeses. I could see a few of these courses not being able to have 40+ age at them, being that tough unless the shorter tee was used.

 

[araytx]

From an outsider's perspective you'd think there was the option to, I dunno, contact the TD directly with a bunch of constructive criticism rather than put the whole thing on blast through social media...but I guess there's not enough drama in that?

Speaking as a TD who has been put on blast because I made a mistake that I owned up to I can honestly say the whole social media "blast" thing is usually a complete d1ck move made by cowards. I was given zero opportunity to make things right before someone went nuts on the Book of Faces even though I had emailed trying to fix my mistake TWO HOURS prior to their drunken rant. And wouldn't ya know it...this rant didn't come from an Am. :|

Now, on the flip side I can see going all "blast" with it if the players have been complaining in multiple messages and they aren't getting anywhere with the powers that be over reasonable complaints. The reality is though, going this route is likely to solve nothing so it's still probably going to be a waste of time.

My opinion is, if you're a pro and are going to put a TD on "blast" you had better have your facts straight and had better tried all other private avenues prior to ranting publicly otherwise you're just going to look like an entitled prick. The best bet? Don't go to the tournament. If it's that bad why waste your time? Even for you so called "pros" this is really just a glorified hobby and you're not making a living at it.

I am thinking something similar. It seems as though this is the kind of thing that makes a good volunteer TD not want to do it any more. People may have "blasted this TD" (I don't get the "blame the PDGA" piece), but other TDs might be thinking, "for what I get out of running this event, is it really all worth it to know that any one mistake might make me persona non grata on FB or DGCR.

Sometimes it helps to shine a light on problems instead of keeping them hidden in the shadows.

General comment, speaking of shining a light and not keeping hidden in the shadows, my dgcr screen name is araytx. My real name is A. Ray and I am from Texas. hmmmmmmm......

 

[biscoe]

I am thinking something similar. It seems as though this is the kind of thing that makes a good volunteer TD not want to do it any more. People may have "blasted this TD" (I don't get the "blame the PDGA" piece), but other TDs might be thinking, "for what I get out of running this event, is it really all worth it to know that any one mistake might make me persona non grata on FB or DGCR.

Yep- this. We have a Major here in less than 2 weeks. Literally 2 years of preparation has gone into it including several hundred hours on my part alone. Guess what? It still will not be perfect and there will be players who take the flaws on social media. For what it is worth I can probably tell you who those players will be before they even arrive here. Hell- I have already heard complaining about an aspect of the event from a player who is not even registered for it and to my knowledge has never been here.

 

[LukeButch]

But they should have the Masters 40+ play the same course as the Open in my opinion just different devison then make it easier for the rest, they have a Masters devison in golf but it starts at 50+ simply due to the modern tech keeping players with a chance to win an event in 40's due to that. Tech in Disc Golf even the longer discs take more power and at 40 some events are too long for them to get to even a money slot thanks to top level of modern players training to throw minimum of 350-400 feet with a putter and driving really long. There are courses that take skill that are more wooded then long that are the type of course that a 40+ age pro could win but they are fewer . Personally a specific tour for 40+ would be a good Idea at 90% of the same places as the NT and PT for the 40+ pro who is not fully retired and could help generate sales for discs that are older/slower and give people a chance to see these discs action, maybe even get enough demand to bring back some old molds in some brands caeses. I could see a few of these courses not being able to have 40+ age at them, being that tough unless the shorter tee was used.

they need to get rid of the 40+ division period. There isn't that much ability and potential drop off at 40 more like most people over 40 choose to focus their energy and time elsewhere and thus skill decreases. These guys are just too good and should be playing open. Most large MPO tournaments are 1 round a day tee times so endurance shouldn't be a big factor.