When can you change par?

[John M. Fretz]

Started this thread expecting the outcome to be that OP is just bad.

Was not disappointed.

You're pretty bad at disc golf Blake, let's be honest. There's a birdieable fairway on all the wooded holes out there. Just because the course isn't a gimme and you want to feel better about your game by changing the pars, doesn't mean it's a poor design. Further, there aren't any pros recording their scores out there, so your stats are skewed to what 850-900 rated players record for their scores out there.

There is a lot of mean hostility on this thread. You guys don't really seem like disc golfers. At least, not the cool ones.
What would Steady Ed say?
Don't worry Blake. Just go out and have fun, and you'll be doing much better than those guys!!

 

[MikeK]

Mr. Fretz, alas, you are completely clueless as to my love of disc golfers. I run a few tournaments a year & serve on the Board of my local club and my regional tournament series. In addition I could have my own thread along the lines of "I am THEY".

I'm quite fine with Blake changing the pars on this course that I co-designed, but to hear him whine about there being no lines on the woods holes calls for an appropriate response. Blake has a lot to learn about course design and as any experienced designer will tell you, it's not as easy as it looks. In addition, the park insisted on doing a few holes their way instead of relying on an experienced course designer, so I don't want to be blamed for these flaws in the design.

 

[biscoe]

^^^from an outside perspective MikeK has done more for dg in Louisiana than anyone else I know of.

 

[John M. Fretz]

Mr. Fretz, alas, you are completely clueless as to my love of disc golfers. I run a few tournaments a year & serve on the Board of my local club and my regional tournament series. In addition I could have my own thread along the lines of "I am THEY".

I'm quite fine with Blake changing the pars on this course that I co-designed, but to hear him whine about there being no lines on the woods holes calls for an appropriate response. Blake has a lot to learn about course design and as any experienced designer will tell you, it's not as easy as it looks. In addition, the park insisted on doing a few holes their way instead of relying on an experienced course designer, so I don't want to be blamed for these flaws in the design.

I'm "clueless" because calling someone bad at disc golf isn't cool, and not a very productive way of addressing Blake's issue. Others did it in a much more tactful way. Just because you run some tourneys, serve on the "Board", and are so proud of your course work doesn't make it cool to belittle people. I don't recall Blake saying your design had flaws, or blaming you for anything. He seemed to be trying to clarify how ppl choose what par is good for a given hole.
However, the best reviewer on this site gave a review that claims that course design is pretty mundane, and not very fun. Also, that he wouldn't play it again unless he had to. I tend to believe him, as every review he's ever done on courses I've played are 100% spot on.

 

[John M. Fretz]

That being said, after looking at the course map, and the hole info for the course. I don't see anywhere that could be called flawed and the pars for holes seem to be accurate. There were even a couple par 4's that would probably be good par 3's too. None of it seemed out of the norm, or unfair. I just thought you and Nega were being pretty harsh to the guy. First time in all the years of being on here that I ever saw someone get called out as "bad".
It don't seem right

 

[scarpfish]

Been following this thread only to finally realize, wait, I've BEEN there!

Folks note there is one set of tees and "Blue" or "Gold" basket positions.

If this is the case, then the hole info for the course is WRONG, and every round entered for this course that wasn't exclusively all blue or all gold is WRONG, and the discussion we are having about par percentages, tee colors, blah, blah, blah, is completely pointless until we have a long drawn out discussion over how to enter course information on here.

For anyone entering hole info, if you have a course with SINGLE tees, but MULTIPLE pin positions, do NOT assign a second tee column for the other pins just so you can show all the numbers, or because you assigned colors to them at the course. Use the pin A, B, C radio buttons for this. You should only be using a second tee color if you have actual multiple TEES.

The hole info page is not just for display.. It has bearings on how scorebook entries, and downflow statistical information for that course compute. If you have hole info entered in the erroneous manner I described, and the pins at your course are in any sort of mixed configuration, there is no way for anyone to record a proper scorebook entry, (except perhaps manually correct it, which is a pain in the ass). That in turn, mucks up your course statistics.

Stuff like this is precisely why I tell people to take the "advanced stats"on here, with a grain of salt.

 

[NegaSnapples]

That being said, after looking at the course map, and the hole info for the course. I don't see anywhere that could be called flawed and the pars for holes seem to be accurate. There were even a couple par 4's that would probably be good par 3's too. None of it seemed out of the norm, or unfair. I just thought you and Nega were being pretty harsh to the guy. First time in all the years of being on here that I ever saw someone get called out as "bad".
It don't seem right

It's ok, I was once bad as well. I used to think par on certain courses were too "difficult" or whatever.

Once you get halfway decent, you start to realize that par on basically every disc golf course is soft. I'm sure Steve can back that one up.

It's ok to be "bad", it's sort of dumb to complain about a FTP course and claim there are no lines to the basket, par is wrong, etc.... It's just wrong and spreading misinformation about a course.

 

[Atvizory2000]

Looks like Blake updated the pars for the gold baskets 3/24 and seems like too many par 4's for the distances.

 

[enragedmullet]

Imho, if you are a recreational or amateur and you're out there just playing casually, change par as you see fit but don't go cushioning yourself, keep it reasonable. For example, in general, if a hole is more than 350 and marked par 3 I'll consider it a 4, just because I'm not that great and for me personally that's a 4. That said, there are some long holes around 400 with no obstacles that, even though I might think if it as a 4, really should be a 3 regardless. I mean with no obstacles you're just chucking it, and that basic ability to launch a disc straight at an unobstructed basket should be the equivalent of bowling with the gutter guards on. If your throw on a hole like that goes so far off that you take a 5, then you need to practice a little bit of control. There are alot of holes I've changed the par on while recording my scores because of this. I'm playing against myself, not anyone else.

 

[roggenb3]

https://imgur.com/a/UANUs

 

[Steve West]

...

For anyone entering hole info, if you have a course with SINGLE tees, but MULTIPLE pin positions, do NOT assign a second tee column for the other pins just so you can show all the numbers, or because you assigned colors to them at the course. Use the pin A, B, C radio buttons for this. You should only be using a second tee color if you have actual multiple TEES....

I don't think that's the best way to do it. It doesn't matter whether the second level of difficulty is created by extra tees or extra targets. If the entire set is designed for a different skill level, it's like a second course that shares the same fairways. I think it's entirely appropriate to assign a different color to those tee/target combos. Even to have multiple colors assigned for the purpose of showing pars for different skill levels.

 

[MikeK]

LoL if the Valkyrie Kid is the "best reviewer" on this site then Franklin makes the best discs. Look, I'm not enthralled with the course by any means, but if Valkyrie had shown up when the pins were in the short "blue" layout he might have given it 4 1/2 stars. But since it was in the long "gold" layout he rated it 2 1/2. Same with Blake, he obviously likes the blue layout much more than the gold as most noobs and old geezers do. Hence, the changing of the pars. I actually agree with Blake changing these pars though, since the data supports it. Sure, for the pros that the gold course was designed for, it'll play a lot closer to par 3 on these holes but for the average player, 4 is fine.

 

[MikeK]

Also: tact, schmact. Some days you just don't have time for sarcasm.

 

[MikeK]

And, there aren't any 340ish woods holes that I see in the data that haven't been deuced. And yes, there is a risky route on one of these holes over an OB soccer/football fenced field. Houck or Chuck would point to it as an example of risk/reward in the design. And yes there's a lot of walking in between holes but that's the land that we were given and you can't just squeeze in holes anywhere around the dog park or fields without risking an accidental injury from an errant disc.

 

[MikeK]

And before anyone gets bent out of shape on me seemingly contradicting myself, the route over the soccer field fence is at least 30 or 40 yards away from the end zone, so no one will be congregating there.

 

[casinnova]

Par is irrelevant, but I personally like par to judge scoring separation and hole difficulty. The PDGA says par should be however many strokes a pro needs to putt twice. Well, sometimes you run into very easy par 5s and sometimes you run into impossible par 3s. You just have to play the par 3s for par and forget the birdie on that hole. Here is the average break down for my local course. Hole's 14 and 15 could very easily be changed to par 4, but regardless of the par number, the SSA is going to be the same so it really doesn't matter.

https://imgur.com/xCfm4vl

 

[Steve West]

.The PDGA says par should be however many strokes a pro needs to putt twice....

No.

https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/811

Par is the score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions, as determined by the Director.

No mention of twice, no mention of putts.

 

[blake833]

Mr. Fretz, alas, you are completely clueless as to my love of disc golfers. I run a few tournaments a year & serve on the Board of my local club and my regional tournament series. In addition I could have my own thread along the lines of "I am THEY".

I'm quite fine with Blake changing the pars on this course that I co-designed, but to hear him whine about there being no lines on the woods holes calls for an appropriate response. Blake has a lot to learn about course design and as any experienced designer will tell you, it's not as easy as it looks. In addition, the park insisted on doing a few holes their way instead of relying on an experienced course designer, so I don't want to be blamed for these flaws in the design.

Mike, I didn't mean to whine about the holes. You're right that I'm not a great player, probably coming in somewhere in the 860s PDGA rating (I've only been in one non-doubles tourney, the Pot of Gold, and was pretty nervous that first round if you noticed that terrrrrible score). And I don't expect to ever score close to par on a gold course, I'm usually a solid 8 to 12 over on most the pro level courses I've played. I know you saw my post on the Facebook group and supported making the changes based on the data, and I can't tell you how much that support means.

I know you have done, are doing, and probably will do more for disc golf in the New Orleans area than anyone else, and I'm not trying to take away from that. You came in a conversation Eric Tracy and I were having today and we spoke very highly of you and the work you've done in the area.

 

[blake833]

Man. I should've kept reading before responding. I did not expect this thread to be so dramatic.

Mike is right, there are days when I am a bad player. I can shoot a round 3 under or 6 over on the same course the same day. I'm new to the area, have never played with Mike, but I know a lot of guys that have. I've played in a tournament he ran, and thought it was incredibly well done. That was one of the days I was not a good player, by a laaaaarrrrge margin. I'm a big boy, I can handle someone calling me a bad player and not be discouraged, because sometimes its true.

The land the course is on is what it is. There's nothing Mike could do about it and I don't know what impositions the park authorities put on the design, but if he had a hand in designing Lafreniere or City Park, then I'm sure he can do those great. You can see my reviews for those courses too and I'll stand by them. My review for this course was from a long time ago when I had stopped playing (that was my only round in two years), and the guy I played with rated it 3.5. He's a way better player than me (about 950), and did three most of those holes. So there is an argument to be made that if we on the Northshore collectively agree to practice until we're all in the mid 900s, this would never be an issue.


Aaanyway I think everything to be said about this has probably already been said, and there's no reason to keep this thread going, especially the direction it has been. Mike- I'd love to get a drink sometime or play a round in New Orleans sometime. Just message me on FB because I hardly check my pm's here

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

So many hurt feelings and deflated egos. Take a page from toddler soccer and eliminate scorekeeping.!

Participation trophies for everyone !!!! :clap: