Where IS the nose?

[Bassun]

Hello all! I know the question seems kind of simplistic, and probably to 99% of DG'ers so elementary that it bears little comment, but - I am a little confused. Let me step back, then return to the question at hand, as it should make more sense.

Total noob. As in I've literally thrown like 5 rounds total. But, I've thrown a fair amount (for a rec player) in the yard. I'm an older short, heavy set body with relatively low flexibility (not from age yet, just never was flexible to begin with), but good strength and decent athleticism.

RHBH - X step.
Real distance - 167G Avair about 175 consistently on flat ground (maybe a couple feet uphill at the 200 foot mark max) (once I'm loose and warm), and about 190 on a better throw. Throwing it very flat, maybe 6 - 10 feet high max and very strait with little fade at the end. Generally within 15 degrees of target path, if I miss with the Avair, it is generally a little to the right, unless I grip-lock then waaay right obviously. First, I understand I could probably get more distance out of it by throwing it higher, and accounting for fade. But, from what I understand, if my form etc. is right, I should be able to laser it 200 feet with no issues.

I did the typical trying to throw faster discs than I should to start. All met with the expected results. I had bought a bunch of used disc's cheap, and got a mix of things, as well as a few new ones. I basically immediately dropped anything speed 11 and up. I do have a champion Beast which is a 10 that I planned on dropping, but I seem to throw it fairly strait - so I'm guessing my throw speed is maxing out at about a "10".

So here's where things get kind of muddy. I wont get into every disc, but a few fly as this: 120G Leopard. If I throw it hard, it starts right, fly's right, stays right, ends waaay right, lol. I did try throwing it with a hyzer and I think I actually hyzer flipped it and it flew like 350 on a slight downhill. Same with a sidewinder of similar weight - probably within 20 feet of each other. (I got a few very light discs for my wife, but I throw them since I have them). To reference, the same lay flew my Avair 250 on a good throw and very on target vs being way off to the right with the understable discs as I aimed true instead of accounting for flight path. If I throw the wedge (also light) hard, it does the same constant right turn when thrown flat, although it seems to pick up more height and doesn't carry nearly as far.

Now if I throw my tbird, or tbird3, both in the 160's IIRC, they fly more "normal" in that they fly relatively strait then fade off left as expected based on the disc. BUT, they are not flying much further than the Avair. Maybe 20 feet on average further. Same with the Beast, better throws are strait but maybe 210-220 max. Again all lazer beam low shots. Tthis is throwing near my max, and not what I would consider a control shot. I also have a Lightning Discs #3 Driver in 160G. I had it in the bag and threw it the other day, although I thought it would be too fast. I was throwing a target of about 160 and the same throw which put the Avair maybe 5 feet long, put it like 25-35 feet long and dead strait. Also about 10 feet higher in the air. I only got to throw it twice then a rain hit and I had to go hide lol. I did not get to rip it hard at my 200 foot target yet. But, based on the short throw I suspect I should hit 250 to 275 when throwing hard - but that's purely guess -- I may have just gotten a couple of odd throws on it. The best I can tell based on research, its speed and flight path is very similar to the leopard - a little less turn, and more fade. It, however, seems to me that it is a faster disc - but that is anecdotal. I am NOT throwing the Leopard 275 strait... if I throw it hard, it flips over and goes way right. BUT -- it DOES have much more total flight distance even if it is out of control.

First - yeah, the light discs are too light. I agree. I just simply cannot rip them as hard as I can throw and have a stable flight. That can be corrected with weight, or adjusting for the instability - but not my biggest concern ATM. (However, I do have a 150 and 165 leopard and a few other 150 class discs on order. I really like how that leopard flies! I am hoping to use it to help really determine what weight I "should" be throwing on calm days. Again, that's for a different day.)

Now that you have a base line of sorts, I loop back to the nose angles. I couldn't understand why I was not getting much further distances out of discs like the teebird and beast vs the avair. To recap - 175-190 for the Avair. Maybe 180-200 for the Teebird and around 190-210 for the Beast. All are similar weight and DX plastic for the Avair and Teebird, Champion for the Beast. My first thought was my nose must be too high. That could account for relatively equal distances... But, then I considered how low I am throwing things. I am keeping everything low, the only disc that has taken off (lifted) on me on a normal throw (not accounting mistakes etc) is the #3 Driver. If my nose angle was too high, wouldn't they all want to float up and then fade left? None the less, I decided to try focus on keeping the nose down a little more on the faster discs.

And that's the problem I am facing now. I have mixed thoughts on "how to" or "where is" the nose. I know it seems simplistic. The nose, as I understand it, is the leading edge of the disc upon its given flight path. Given a strait flat throw, standing directly behind the disc the nose being the portion furthest away. So far so good... twisted counter clock wise, left edge down - right up, hyzer - and conversely, left up - right down, anhyzer. Again, sounds simple. Where I am running into issues is accounting for nose (and ultimately hyzer angles) through the entire motion.

Here is what is getting me. I understood initially that during the pull through across your chest, disc/nose angle should be flat (low for drivers, but let's just say flat in general) - so tilted forward was nose low, tilted back nose high. I also thought as you pulled across the leading edge is the nose. But, then as I read more - it seems if you hold the disc toward the target - that orientates the nose and you must handshake downwards a bit to lower the nose (which is hard for me to get much lower than level with a normal 4 finger power grip). That made sense - until I considered the pull through. When pulling across, the two leading edges are actually opposed from pull through and release.

So, which is actually the nose? The leading edge of the disc during pull through, or the leading edge if you point the disc at the target. I assume the ladder, and you have to reverse it during pull through. IE - if i look at a video and my leading edge during pull is low, then the nose will be high upon release, and vice versa.

Again, this is all related to the similar flight distances... but, to be honest, I am not really convinced my nose is too high to begin with. I would expect if it was, then my putters - and lighter discs especially, would really launch up in the air, stall, then fade left. (They do on bad throws, but I recognize a really bad throw vs a good throw for me.) I know it's a hard question to answer without video -- but considering the above - does it sound like a nose issue, or just a matter of working up more speed? I expected the disc dynamics on similar throws alone would result in a more significant difference in flight distance, even at lower arm speeds...but maybe I am expecting too much.

I understand there are different drills, etc. that can help with any aspect of the throw -- but before I focus on drill-x I want to try to better understand my own mechanics and understand where the most likely issue is. If it's release angles - that's one thing --- if its speed, that's a totally different thing in my mind. I know my form has flaws, I know I can benefit from different drills - but, before I start doing specific drills, I want to better understand the weakness. Then, I can focus on improving XYZ along the path. And to be candid, I am not looking to go throw tourney's. Honestly, I won't be spending hours a day practicing. I will do drills, add focus, etc. to "fix" issues, but I am not going to be doing daily work consistently. I don't expect to be throwing putters 400 feet on dead level ground, ever. But, I feel confident that I should be able to lazer beam 250, and with glide 300 - moreover, I would expect to see a fairly significant jump from Avair to Teebird, etc.

And maybe that is my own misconception, but I feel like tossing a beast, teebird, etc. 350-400 shouldn't be unreasonable if I am hitting 250/300 with a putter. If I am over expecting the difference in flight distance, please -- let me know.

WOW - that was really long - but hopefully gives enough insight to get some general input. If not, well, thanks anyway --- I have garnered a ton from reading a variety of stuff here.

 

[VLaForce2002]

tl;dr

So, which is actually the nose? The leading edge of the disc during pull through, or the leading edge if you point the disc at the target.

Legit question which I would like to see answered (RHBH) in the following manner:
Target is 12 o'clock, player at rest chest is pointed to 9 o'clock, so
1) nose o'clock at reach back
2) nose o'clock at pre-hit right peck
3) nose o'clock at hit point
4) nose o'clock at release

Finally if the nose changes after release then o'clock and reason why it changed

And please don't include "it depends on the player blah blah blah"; answer for yourself or someone you saw (video or in person). Even if it is an approximation answer simply lead off with the context

 

[Jay Dub]

I've been playing a long time and have always wondered where people considered the nose to be. And after reading VLa's reply, I'm still confused.

What's "nose o'clock"?

 

[Bassun]

He wasn't answering Jay, he was condensing and asking since I kind of went all over the place lol.

The o'clock is waiting for something like:
Nose at 6 o'clock at reach back, etc

 

[scoopa]

I would read this:

https://www.vorticasport.com/single-post/2018/02/21/12-Classic-Mistakes-in-Disc-Golf-No-6-Classic-Nose-Angle-Issue

 

[Countchunkula]

I've always take it to mean the leading edge of the disc relative to the direction it is traveling.

 

[Bassun]

Thanks! That's a handy article, and I am becoming more aware of disc orientation during flight to determine nose angles (really all angles), but again, that doesn't really discuss nose position/orientation throughout the throwing process. I follow that the grip dictates the fine tuning of it, but it's the rest of the throw and making adjustments where I am struggling to follow the nose.

And to be honest, I don't have the experience to note a degree or two off perfection. I can obviously see when I do something dumb and blow a throw -- but that's so obvious it's hard not to tell, lol.

Regardless, given your response, I take it you feel I am likely throwing with a little too much nose up on the faster discs, even though they are not spinning off badly during the fade?

Am I simply expecting too much of a difference between disc types at my throwing speed? Is there not enough of a difference, taking into account being a little nose high potentially, that I shouldn't see obvious gains from say Avair to Teebird to Beast?

 

[Bassun]

I've always take it to mean the leading edge of the disc relative to the direction it is traveling.

That was my initial take on it. But then I started thinking about the throw from reach to release... As I understand it, you want no off axis movement. So, if you pull the disc forward from full reach - keeping the leading edge slightly lower - then when you execute the snap, one would have to reverse the orientation as the leading edge during full reach back is now the trailing edge since it seems you end up rotating the disc 180 degrees from full reach to snap.

I could be completely wrong, which is why I asked. In my mind, if I want to keep the nose down (or up etc) I need to set it at the full reach back moment, with the angle being set to the trailing edge as I begin moving forward laterally, as it will rotate into the leading edge upon release during the snap.

 

[sidewinder22]

The nose is between the eyes and the mouth.

Understanding Nose Angles and Trajectory:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/angles.shtml

When the disc is flying the nose is simply the leading edge of the disc on its trajectory. The most important part of throwing far is to have the nose down as the disc transitions out of the apex into the downward gliding out phase. The difficult part for many to understand is that the nose changes as the trajectory changes. It's rare to throw a perfectly straight shot where the nose stays at 12 o'clock, but neutral putters and mids can do that, but drivers not so much.

So if you throw a right to left hyzer, the nose will start at 1-2 o'clock initially, and then it will finish at like 9-10 o'clock as it fades out.

If you throw a left to right anhyzer or distance shot the nose will start at like 10-11 o'clock and turnover in the apex to about 1-2 o'clock and might finish there or then depending on the angle and stability it may gradually flex back to 12, 11 etc to the finish.

While you are gripping the disc the nose is basically on the opposite side of the disc from your thumb, where the top of the pink hammer is below extending straight out from the handle:

 

[slowplastic]

If you hold your arm out in front of you with the disc in it, 12 o'clock is away from you and 6 is pointing at you, then I think of the nose during the throwing motion as the 12 o'clock part of the disc. When it rips out it's kind of pivoting and it's likely the 9 o'clock part that will then become the new 12 o'clock at last hand contact. So in SW22's image above it feels like the purple hammer head when I'm in the throwing motion, and it becomes the green hammer head through the hit point.

Also if you're throwing stuff 200' I'm not surprised to see very little difference between putters and fairways. You need to be throwing 250' at least to see fairways really glide I find, and at the 300' barrier or so is when different classes of discs really act different. Until you get through that barrier, don't be surprised to only see 20' or so difference between putters, then mids, then fairways. When people are stuck at around 300' it usually doesn't matter if they throw a speed 6 Leo or speed 11 understable whatever, they are usually capped at that distance and the disc won't help them.

I'd look at nose angle being a problem more if you can't get stuff to turn over and hold a left to right line, and if discs are climbing up and stalling out rather than line driving forward with a late fade.

Edit: Body positions/leverage make a huge difference, so post a video in the form section if you want to try to up your distance really quickly. It's usually a couple glaring issues at the beginning stage that you need to get through and will really help you out.

 

[Bassun]

Sidewinder -- thx. That pretty much explains what I was thinking on the nose orientation during the throw after I broke down the "swing". To convert to what VLaForce2002 was asking:

1) nose about 6 o'clock at reach back
2) nose remains at about 6 o'clock at pre-hit right peck
3) nose begins quickly shifting from 6 forward to 12 at hit point
4) nose at 12 o'clock at release if throwing strait.

Slowplastic -- You hit the other thing I was trying to figure out. Was it something I was doing with the individual discs, or the overall keeping the D down. Knowing at this stage disc selection should not make a significant difference is actually very helpful. I know I can focus on the putter being "perfect" and apply it up through the discs with minor tweaks depending on platform.

Quick question though. When you say the 300 ft barrier - do you mean with a putter, or any disc? I suspect I can get to 300 with a fairway much faster than I can with my putter, lol.

Watching my throws flights, I think (luckily) nose angle isn't my biggest problem, as I can turn over lighter stuff throwing flat. Wedge and Leopard for example, and unless I mess up I don't get a lot of float and stalls or lift and hard fades. I'm keeping stuff in a pretty consistent line drive right now, unless I just mess up the throw.

I 100% agree that all of my form and technique needs tweaking. I'm just glad that it looks like I am able to keep the nose low enough and was understanding how the orientation was applied vs just thinking... nose down nose down.

I wont post a video right now, as I want to get more comfortable with a routine a bit first and try to apply better what I understand. Knowing is one thing, doing is a whole different beast. I simply don't have the muscle memory yet to replicate consistently, once I get to that point - I will definitely post a video whether I'm tossing 200 or 400. There's always a good reason to have someone else check your form. Plus, I am a firm believe that you learn more from your mistakes than by getting it right the first time. I'm willing to bet I can add 25 feet to my putter with a couple hours of work just by getting things more consistent and focusing on release timing and angles. To be honest, right now I am having to think too much during the throw - I want to get past the thinking stage and into a process then I can make the adjustments I need from there. If I were to add 5 more things to think about, I think it would become even more of a mental block vs just going and doing.

Thanks everyone for your input! It's helped to put some clarity and understanding into things. I appreciate it!

 

[slowplastic]

Typically at the 300' barrier people will throw mids anywhere 260-280, generally kind of floaty in flight though, and fairways and anything faster around 300ish.

It's useful to throw putters, mids, and fairways. Putters are finicky to torque, mids are similar but handle more power and give you a bit more easy distance, and fairways respond well to good velocity and are sensitive to poor nose angle. Keep practicing all of those, just stay away from very overstable discs as well as discs much faster than speed 7...at this point they would cover up form flaws rather than give you more reliable/controlled distance than speed 7, while their increased fade/speed can cover up a touch more torque.

 

[Bassun]

Thanks!

As of the other day, I am tossing a wombat 3 about 235 and the avair about 220 pretty consistently. Leopards going a little further than the wombat 3, but not enough to matter -- I'm still turning over the super light leopard, but the 150 and 165 are not turning over at all. Top throw was just under 250. I'm throwing my avair further than the teebird, which surprised me a bit. Maybe bad day for it, as normally its a few feet further than the putter.

I WAS getting the nose up, and still do on occasion --- based on disc profile during flight. Right now, my biggest problem is involving the hips and shoulders correctly. I'm still throwing basically all arm. I don't gain much (honestly if any notable) distance from the walk up, but, as long as I keep it consistent it helps with my routine and form overall so unless its a "touch" shot I am going to stick with it.

I "felt" good hip and shoulder engagement the other day --- I ripped a leopard (or maybe sidewinder) about 350 total flight path in a level field, but little over 200 forward distance. The rip felt totally different and the disc shot off like a rocket --- unfortunately, I managed to hold too long / release too late and things went way right. I'm struggling to replicate that engagement, but once I lock it down I think I will be ready for some good video critiquing. I now feel the difference between trying to throw hard vs throwing fast, and that gave me some additional distance.

On a big note, muscle memory is really starting to kick in. I added a step of looking at the disc during full back reach to make sure all the angles are right -- if things are not spot on, I just step out and start over. Last field practice, I had the nose wrong and wanted to step out - but my body went ahead and made the throw. It was really weird thinking ok this is bad, stop --- and I still ended up throwing. It wasn't perfect, but still around 200 and relatively strait, lol. It's making it a lot easier to think about the other things during the throw and letting it happen vs having to think through every step.

 

[slowplastic]

I "felt" good hip and shoulder engagement the other day --- I ripped a leopard (or maybe sidewinder) about 350 total flight path in a level field, but little over 200 forward distance. The rip felt totally different and the disc shot off like a rocket --- unfortunately, I managed to hold too long / release too late and things went way right. I'm struggling to replicate that engagement, but once I lock it down I think I will be ready for some good video critiquing. I now feel the difference between trying to throw hard vs throwing fast, and that gave me some additional distance.

Alignment should be roughly rear foot's toes to front foot's heel to target. Beginners often line up parallel to their intended target, so they early release all their shots. If you get a shot that bombs out there but is 20-30 degrees too right...you likely threw it correctly but just set yourself up in the wrong direction.

 

[Bassun]

Good point... I have been setting up basically heel to heel. I will have to work on foot placement. I knew the "long" throwers set up more closed, but I thought it was more of a long distance driving thing vs being more closed as a normal stance. I'll shift it over and go from there.

Thanks!

 

[slowplastic]

Good point... I have been setting up basically heel to heel. I will have to work on foot placement. I knew the "long" throwers set up more closed, but I thought it was more of a long distance driving thing vs being more closed as a normal stance. I'll shift it over and go from there.

Thanks!

The wider your stride the more offset your feet will appear, but on a relatively narrow standstill shot you should still set up toes through heel. The same angle but with say a 1' wider step would then seem like a bigger gap between the feet.