Who really wants to help?

[Sadjo]

It seems that when a course is being planned everyone says they want to help with the design (less want to help with actually physical work of clearing and dragging) but when you let everyone know and invite players to walk through of the property, few very show up?

I've never had more than three people join me on a walk through and no more than 5 total ever give input to a design. Yet once a course goes into the ground, people like to ask why didn't you do this or do that?

Does anyone else have similar situations?

 

[Smokin' Joe]

Happens more than I'd like to say.

 

[pchitti]

Try getting people to a work day....

 

[Cgkdisc]

I just make sure to post opportunities for people to walk-thru potential designs, come to council meetings if needed for support/approval and participate in work days. Then, if/when they complain later, all you need to do is point out their failings in coming to any of your publicized activities.

 

[gregorvn]

Also make sure that when people do show up to help that you actually listen to them. Sometimes people claim to want input, but when people show up, their ideas aren't listened to. Lots of "thanks for your input, but..."

I'm not saying you do this, and I know that getting volunteers is difficult in many cases, just be sure that if you invite people, their ideas aren't dismissed because they aren't a pro or because it's not what you like.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The problem with some input is that it's simply an idea or their personal preference not backed up with any reasoning behind it with phrasing along the lines of, "Wouldn't it be cool if..." At least regarding design, ideas that are backed up with logical reasons are well received such as, "Perhaps moving the pin over here would be just as challenging and farther away from the pedestrian path." Design by committee of equals rarely works. The classic "example" being the camel was designed by a team of equals who were actually trying to design a horse. An overall preliminary design and even alternatives prepared by one person whose ideas are then challenged and tweaked by a cast of effective devils advocates usually works best. Design by one person with no feedback from others at all before it goes in the ground may not be as good as it could be even if the designer is experienced.

So, if you get wind of course projects in your area, please volunteer and learn how to become an effective assistant. Just as many good ideas can come from Ams as Pros if they are well thought thru.

 

[Brall]

im one of the people with good intensions but never show.

my intensions really are good. I LOVE this sport! but i have no time. None to spare.

to give you an example of how little time i personally have to spare; as much as i love this game, i only got 66 rounds in last year. i would rather that number be around 400.

just fyi, there are many others like me.

i guess i should note that i realize you are not talking about those like me. you are referring to those that talk up the hype, have the free time, but don't show ever to help out but instead stay home and eat cheetos.

 

[prerube]

It seems that when a course is being planned everyone says they want to help with the design (less want to help with actually physical work of clearing and dragging) but when you let everyone know and invite players to walk through of the property, few very show up?

I've never had more than three people join me on a walk through and no more than 5 total ever give input to a design. Yet once a course goes into the ground, people like to ask why didn't you do this or do that?

Does anyone else have similar situations?

Of course everyone wants to give their input, but not their sweat or money.

 

[Sadjo]

Normally my involvement is proposing a course and getting the funding. Once a course is funded and we know the property lines and any parameters from the city/parks & rec/ land owner, I'll step back and let someone else take the lead.

There are a couple where I've got the funding in place and the owner of the property or the city has ask for me specifically to be involved. I'll invite everyone to walk through the property, supply everyone who wants an aerial picture of the property a pic and topographical maps.

I'll end up getting emails course designs and then comments later about this aspect or that aspect. The maps are tools to use after walking and seeing the property first hand, not to sketch out at home without knowing the subtleties of the property.

Doesn't seem to matter what you do.

 

[DavidSauls]

I was a bit surprised by this, as well. In 2004 we bought some land with the intention of building a private, open-to-the-public course. As owners, we'd have great flexibility in the design. We invited all the disc golfers in the area to come help us design it or at least contribute ideas---not build it, just design it---and no one was interested. I'd have thought they'd jump at the chance.

 

[jack straw]

im one of the people with good intensions but never show.

my intensions really are good. I LOVE this sport! but i have no time. None to spare.

to give you an example of how little time i personally have to spare; as much as i love this game, i only got 66 rounds in last year. i would rather that number be around 400.

just fyi, there are many others like me.

i guess i should note that i realize you are not talking about those like me. you are referring to those that talk up the hype, have the free time, but don't show ever to help out but instead stay home and eat cheetos.

If you played 66 rounds than you have plenty of time to volunteer. I'm not looking to attack you but there are so many players with this mentality that they don't have time to volunteer but have no problem getting in at least one round a week. People would be surprised at how gratifying it is to help with a course.

 

[Brall]

If you played 66 rounds than you have plenty of time to volunteer. I'm not looking to attack you but there are so many players with this mentality that they don't have time to volunteer but have no problem getting in at least one round a week. People would be surprised at how gratifying it is to help with a course.

there is always time to volunteer.

if you play one round a year, you could have spent that time volunteering.

if you played zero rounds a year, you could have spent less time doing whatever it was you were doing and helped out.

where do you draw the line?

people measure their limited free time differently according to importance and priority.

 

[Sadjo]

there is always time to volunteer.

if you play one round a year, you could have spent that time volunteering.

if you played zero rounds a year, you could have spent less time doing whatever it was you were doing and helped out.

where do you draw the line?

people measure their limited free time differently according to importance and priority.

I know I do less and less club work days but feel I have given back by selling courses and putting together proposals. I also always give a disc or two plus other items to all of our local events I can...whether or not I play in them...which I mostly don't.

The main part of the discussion seems to be all the players that talk about wanting to help with a design...just want the chance to be involved and then when the time comes, very few, if any, show.

After we installed the course at CBF, we publicized that a redesign was going to happen in the winter. Several players had ideas but when it came time to get out to the course and work with the flow and everything else, one player, other than me, showed up.

The owner of the property has asked for us to add additional tees (red and blue tees) and some other changes. It would be nice to have a few more players to help with this...it's hard to do it all on your own.

 

[DavidSauls]

My foible is the opposite---a temptation to give design advice where none was solicited.

 

[Lewis]

Some possible benign explanations for this phenomenon:

1: Not everybody has the same schedule as the person proposing the walk-throughs. I have been forced to miss walk-throughs and work days in the past that were scheduled during my shifts at work. Some people have to work on Saturdays, or have to work night shifts, or have to work into the evenings on random days, and can't do anything about it. Some of them may be the people you invited but you didn't consider when they might have to be at work or on a job site or something.

2: There may be people in your club who want to help with the design, or who would like to help with the work days, but they don't have any confidence in their abilities. In these cases you have to make an extra effort to make them feel welcome before they'll show up. Just simple shyness. I've never been stricken by shyness, but it's very real for a lot of people, and they may actually be the ones with the best ideas.

3: There may be people in your club who have ideas but assume you don't want them, even after you openly ask for it. Some people may hear "If you want to help, come on out," and interpret it as "If you're a professional and you want to help, come on out." This is the assumption of club elitism from the less advanced players and is perpetuated by the all-too common disdain for "barneys" and "noobs."

Or maybe they don't get ideas until you lay out the course because they can't "see" it yet. Perhaps to cope with this you could lay out your course and wait for the negative comments before you lay the concrete.

 

[DSCJNKY]

Lucky you... Having too many designers is sometimes counterproductive.

I'd rather they show up to work than show up to help design.
DSCJNKY

 

[nitegolfer]

From my experience, walk throughs are for only those that have their nose far enough up someone's butt. And, participating in a walk through, at times results in more conflict and BS simply because the decisions have already been made. Then there are the claims that individuals need "help" but yet don't want to listen to people that obviously have more experience with the sport. The only help they truly want is the heavy lifting. That gets real old and turns people off from participating at a higher level. I've shaped concrete tee pads, dragged limbs, sprayed for poison ivy, planted grass (not what your thinking), cleared land, weed whacked, dragged temp pole holes, assist in tournaments and on and on only to be asked "what have you done for me lately".

Now, if done right, and adequate time is available then all input can be evaluated fairly. But, from my experience the "time issue" is usually used by someone to get their way. I've seen this play over and over and now I am no longer a club player but just a disc golfer. Not all situations are like mine, so good luck and prepare to listen. Also, look at the resources you have and don't over extend just because you want to impress people at a higher level in the sport.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Or maybe they don't get ideas until you lay out the course because they can't "see" it yet. Perhaps to cope with this you could lay out your course and wait for the negative comments before you lay the concrete.

This is a good idea in general. I don't think it's wise to pour pads until a course is tested over several months to see if the design actually holds up under playing conditions. But I see very few actually analyzing their designs after installation to make sure it challenges their intended player skill level(s) and then following thru with changes that might be warranted.

 

[Sadjo]

This is a good idea in general. I don't think it's wise to pour pads until a course is tested over several months to see if the design actually holds up under playing conditions. But I see very few actually analyzing their designs after installation to make sure it challenges their intended player skill level(s) and then following thru with changes that might be warranted.

This is great advice. The few times I've led the design, I've always waited to 'finalize' the tee positions...for those reasons you mention Chuck. The feed back was simply, 'don't hold an event or invite us to the course until its finalized'.

I'm one that strongly believes in giving the option to redesign down the road. The two courses I'm helping with this spring have Flypads as the proposed tee pads because they're easier to move or make changes with than cement.

 

[Peterb]

As anyone who has ever founded a course knows, it is a tremendous amount of work to get one established. From the wrangling with local park department employees, dealing with angry neighbors, to solving the often difficult puzzle of designing with all kinds of constraints and fundraising for the course. Not to even mention implementation. If you're one of the brave and dedicated people who take on this challenge, then I say kudos to you and you deserve to have the final say on the course design. I'm not saying you should design all alone, and I've found that you need all kinds of feedback in the design phase. But you should get the final say.

Bottom line: don't worry about any disc golfer who whines about that dogleg right because he or she can't throw a forehand.