Why Disc Golf Monkey events rock!

[DavidSauls]

Perhaps another way to look at this lavish-payout events is to wonder how great they'd be with everyday payouts---or perhaps none at all. If you can say the event would be a good one without all the extra merchandise, then the payout is a bonus, making the tournament even better. Kudos. But if the event would be lousy without a big payout, then you have to wonder if you're buying friendship.

 

[Royal Hill]

I like 3ps last paragraph above. The questioning if it's worthwhile to entice casuals to competition.

I think it is still noble. For our sport, so much of our success or ability to get stuff done (getting courses, mantenance, improvements) means forming a sizable "community" (sometimes even just to keep our courses since are so low on the pecking order it seems some times). Events seem to be the only way most of our clubs can do that. (obtain community)

But that does open up a lot of possibilities for events. And a lot of people will participate in community. Even if its to a different level than our own competitive selves. We presuppose far too often about what "community" takes (bribes, merit based Prizing, supplying the means to a competitive ego and so on).

Short list if one wants to take this to the polar opposite of standard thought: de emphasize merit based Prizing. Increase random/proximity Prizing (door Prizing!) if you still want to give stuff away. Increase the community factor - sometimes this means food, sometimes it's a social cause. Or your own cause (disc golf in the park) Seek to remove the intimidation factor to community events. Ask for all skills, all ages... And not because theres a division they can win, but because you wan to meet them. Tell people you want to see someone throw a round score of a hundred. Build low risk event models that break even super early so there are no shirts to be lost. And think of this crazy thought... Sometimes... If no one wins (on skill merit)... Everybody wins.

 

[ScottyLove]

I'll offer up another suggestion. I just got $160.00 deposited into my personal PayPal account from Mr. Steve Dodge for hosting a Birdie Bash for 32 players that drew from folks from STL and KC (both over 2 hours away) and several stayed at the nearby campground for the weekend helping the local economy. I'm allowed to pocket that money for my effort, but I'm instead donating it to the club for our B-Tier this fall.

Even better, I'm hosting a Trilogy Challenge this August in which we get $9 per player back instead of $5. 40 players will net us a cool $360...

As for recreational players versus competitors... I really don't give two hoots about the recreation player when it comes to tournaments. They aren't for everyone. I build courses for them to play on out of my own blood, sweat, and hard work and they litter the course with their beer cans. I pick those up and keep on trudging. It's thankless... but I love it. I don't want a thank you... thank you to me is meaningless (so I apologize to my cohorts when I don't thank them for help... it's just the way I'm wired I guess). Buy me a beer instead.

I wouldn't expect a non-competitive person to show up at any tournament. They can play any other day we haven't reserved the course. So we're not plugging in the non-competitive... they already stay home.

I must be missing something... I understand qualify of event on it's own. 2013 AmWorlds was amazing. I've been to the last two Memorials in AZ and will go back every year. Not for the payout which is ZERO but for the fun. But what is so wrong with deep payouts for other events?

I call myself a semi-pro because I love to turn my merch into cash to keep on going. I've sold over $700 of stuff in the last few months on silly Facebook auctions and that affords me to travel and play more. So yeah, I like deep payouts that afford me the opportunity to travel to US Master and GBO in a few weeks. I like the model and it seems to be working just fine and appears very sustainable with 7 year track record of increased attendance every year. I guess we could run into some kind of hiccup, but we'll cross that bridge when and if it happens. In the meantime, I can't wait to line up after the awards ceremony to get more swag.

Gotta go... have to ship a disc I just sold for $30 online that I picked up with my merch voucher.

 

[ScottyLove]

I think this has derailed a bit and I was part of that...

My original point was that I keep reading about TDs stealing from Ams to pay Pros and how that seems common place. I really just wanted to say we have someone not doing that. In fact, just the opposite. The pros getting cash don't help the bottom line at all, so deep Am payouts help sustain the business end actually.

 

[blkwizardsonny]

I believe russ gets the city to pay for player pack items most of the time .

 

[JC17393]

I think this has derailed a bit and I was part of that...

My original point was that I keep reading about TDs stealing from Ams to pay Pros and how that seems common place. I really just wanted to say we have someone not doing that. In fact, just the opposite. The pros getting cash don't help the bottom line at all, so deep Am payouts help sustain the business end actually.

This just doesn't ****ing happen. It doesn't. Sorry to curse, but I absolutely hate that people frame things this way to make it appear like ams are some sort of victims. No one is stealing from them. NO ONE. Saying so implies ams aren't get anything for their entries. What you're really trying to say is the ams don't get enough, in your opinion. There's a big difference between wanting more than fair value for your entry and not getting anything at all.

So your tournaments pay out really well to amateurs by giving them everything at cost so there's no retail margin left to give to anyone (pros, clubs, courses, businesses). Fine, great. Let that stand on its own merits instead of contrasting it against a gross misrepresentation of the alternative.

 

[ScottyLove]

I believe russ gets the city to pay for player pack items most of the time .

Incorrect. Monies are raised to pay for player packs via the hard work of the hosting clubs. In some cases like this past weekend, a grant was written and and given to the city but that is not the norm.

 

[ScottyLove]

This just doesn't ****ing happen. It doesn't. Sorry to curse, but I absolutely hate that people frame things this way to make it appear like ams are some sort of victims. No one is stealing from them. NO ONE. Saying so implies ams aren't get anything for their entries. What you're really trying to say is the ams don't get enough, in your opinion. There's a big difference between wanting more than fair value for your entry and not getting anything at all.

So your tournaments pay out really well to amateurs by giving them everything at cost so there's no retail margin left to give to anyone (pros, clubs, courses, businesses). Fine, great. Let that stand on its own merits instead of contrasting it against a gross misrepresentation of the alternative.

I was just gonna let this die, but I can feel your angst in the post. I'm not accusing anyone of anything... I just keep reading on and on in forums like this that some portion of the entry fees paid by amateur players is transferred to the pro payout pool. Does this not happen? Is it commonplace in other areas?

I'm just saying that on this tour, the money paid into the payout pool in your division stays in your division... PERIOD. An in fact, no PDGA fees nor player pack costs are subtracted. 85% payout for C-Tier and 100% payout for B-Tier(+$500 or more added cash) is what we see on the DGM. Based on what I read about other tours, this is phenomenal and I wanted to share.

Also, in addition to the great payouts, we all have fun gathering each month, break bread together between rounds, sleep at each others places the night before, and hangout after the rounds to commemorate and commiserate. I wanted to share this with those that keep going on and on about evil TDs....

 

[dx_roc]

nobody is stealing from the am's.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101930&highlight=money

DSauls:

I can't speak for the tournaments in your area but, around here, none of the Am entry fees go directly to pros.

Generally, Ams get back all of their entry fees in players packs and merchandise prizes. Sometimes there's a deduction for the PDGA and other fees, but it's a small amount. Ams, as a group, are essentially playing for free.

There is usually a margin between the wholesale cost and retail value of the merchandise, which is earned by the TD (Club, etc.) for handling the merchandise. This margin may go to fixed costs (sanctioning, course rental, supplies.....the list is endless). The TD may donate some "profit" on the merchandise to the pro purse, which is why some people incorrectly think that Am fees are going to Pros.

About the most you can say is that Ams support the tournament structure, because the margin on the merch goes to the fixed costs and money raised by the TD or club. It's why you see so few pro-only events.

 

[DavidSauls]

Edit: deleted post, since someone quoted me anyway.

Except to say that ScottyLove's right about his other point---those DGM payouts are generous, much more so than the norm.

 

[JC17393]

I was just gonna let this die, but I can feel your angst in the post. I'm not accusing anyone of anything... I just keep reading on and on in forums like this that some portion of the entry fees paid by amateur players is transferred to the pro payout pool. Does this not happen? Is it commonplace in other areas?

Just using the word "steal", to me, is accusatory. It implies theft. It implies wrong-doing. If that's not your intent, then perhaps you need to choose your words more carefully.

Moving a portion of am fees directly to the pro payout is not commonplace at all. Moving the profit portion of the retail value of am player packs and prizes to the pro purse is fairly commonplace. But that is the TD or vendor donating what is rightfully theirs to the purse, not "stealing" from the ams.

To me, if you're want to contrast paying out at wholesale cost to paying out at retail value, that's fine and a fair discussion to have. My sole objection is with anyone framing the valuation of player packs/prizes at retail prices as "stealing" from the amateur players. It's misleading at best and insulting to a lot of hard working TDs who employ the practice at worst.

 

[Discette]

....
Now I know you can't get that kind of turnout in Rolla... but I know I could run a C-Tier event and keep 15% of the profit without calling in a vendor and still make everyone happy. I'd simply purchase enough plastic wholesale to do the payouts... a good cross-section of new stuff.

....
My original point was that I keep reading about TDs stealing from Ams to pay Pros and how that seems common place. I really just wanted to say we have someone not doing that. In fact, just the opposite. The pros getting cash don't help the bottom line at all, so deep Am payouts help sustain the business end actually.

... I just keep reading on and on in forums like this that some portion of the entry fees paid by amateur players is transferred to the pro payout pool. Does this not happen? Is it commonplace in other areas?

I'm just saying that on this tour, the money paid into the payout pool in your division stays in your division... PERIOD. An in fact, no PDGA fees nor player pack costs are subtracted. 85% payout for C-Tier and 100% payout for B-Tier(+$500 or more added cash) is what we see on the DGM....

And why is it OK for you or DGM to keep the retail profits AND to take 15% of the entry fees, but if I am the TD and take only my meager profit margin on merchandise and decide to donate it back to the event (as added cash or value to the pros) I am STEALING money from the Ams?

Technically, I could take 15% off the top of the Am entry and throw it straight to the Pro purse and it would be within PDGA guidelines for a C-Tier. You call it stealing if I give it to the Pros, yet it is simply awesome if DGM puts 15% of the Am and Pro entry fees straight into his pocket.


I currently run an annual C-Tier event. Last year we had over 190 players. I gave all Ams, Pros and volunteers a player package. The event paid out 100% (not 85%) of the entry fees back to each division of Ams and Pros (less required fees). The final payout was actually valued at 208% for Ams and 199% for Pros. Then on top of all that, the event donated $1000.00 to EDGE. The Am side of the event sold out a month in advance.




To recap...
DGM takes 15% off the top PLUS keeps the merchandise mark-up profit and is an awesome TD. I pay 100% to every single division and donate $1000 to EDGE, but because I use the merchandise markup to purchase Pro player packs or add cash, somehow I am "STEALING" the Am entry fees.

Does DGM give Pros a player pack at C-Tiers?
Does DGM pay Pros 100% at the C-Tiers?
Does DGM donate money to any charities?
My events do all of the above.



I decided years ago, that if I was going to do all this work to run events, I wanted something to show for it. I feel much better donating $1000 to EDGE each year rather than adding a few C-notes to some Pro player's wallet. Thanks to the Sky High Showdown, the EDGE program has been awarded to three schools in So Cal with another on the way.

 

[ScottyLove]

Does DGM give Pros a player pack at C-Tiers?
Does DGM pay Pros 100% at the C-Tiers?
Does DGM donate money to any charities?
My events do all of the above.

Now I'm hot...

Answer to question #1: YES... pros always get a pack too
Answer to question #2: Yes
Answer to question #3: A RESOUNDING YES. In fact, this single tour gave almost 10% of the entire E.D.G.E. annual take in 2012. DGM was give given the 2103 E.D.G.E award by the PDGA for the outstanding fund raising efforts.

2012 EDGE RECAP

The word "steal" was not really my word... I was just borrowing it from other threads I've read. Probably a poor choice on my part.

I have no problem with Russ keeping the money. He's a small business man trying to make a living. He runs tournaments for profit. He's not getting rich, but he's feeding his family.

Most of the rest of us TD folks have regular jobs and TD for the enjoyments I guess. It's hard work, but someone has to do it. I wish I had the balls to strike out on my own and do nothing but disc golf related stuff for a living, so in that aspect, I admire Russ and will continue to support all of his ventures.

 

[Discette]

Now I'm hot...

Answer to question #1: YES... pros always get a pack too
Answer to question #2: Yes
Answer to question #3: A RESOUNDING YES. In fact, this single tour gave almost 10% of the entire E.D.G.E. annual take in 2012. DGM was give given the 2103 E.D.G.E award by the PDGA for the outstanding fund raising efforts.

2012 EDGE RECAP

The word "steal" was not really my word... I was just borrowing it from other threads I've read. Probably a poor choice on my part.

I have no problem with Russ keeping the money. He's a small business man trying to make a living. He runs tournaments for profit. He's not getting rich, but he's feeding his family.

Most of the rest of us TD folks have regular jobs and TD for the enjoyments I guess. It's hard work, but someone has to do it. I wish I had the balls to strike out on my own and do nothing but disc golf related stuff for a living, so in that aspect, I admire Russ and will continue to support all of his ventures.

Great to see DGM contributing to disc golf beyond great am payouts! :clap:In 2013, DGM was also honored by the EDGE TCP as 2nd place for most funds raised by a series and top 5 most events in a series. :thmbup:

Here is the link to the: 2013 EDGE Tournament Charity Program Recap:


So I agree with the OP!

DGM runs awesome events that also support EDGE!

Congratulations to Russ and DGM! :hfive: