[Innova] Why has nobody ever told me?

[DiscinFiend]

And contrary to some opinions, dx can and will take plenty of abuse. These kids think having a ding, cut or gash on your roc is a bad thing. What they don't understand is thats kind of what I want to happen eventually.

:thmbup:

DX slowly changes over time? now that's a new one. I hope you only play in grass fields.
Roc3 FTW.

:doh: I play a lot of wooded courses, my home course is wooded & I play there about every other day & have no problem cycling Rocs. People seem to underestimate how durable DX plastic is in Mids & Putters. I think throwing high speed DX drivers isn't that great of an idea & a waste of money IMO. I actually like that my discs beat in but I cycle discs & FYI hitting one tree doesn't change the flight characteristics. I play disc golf 5-7 times a week (not including field practice) & I only need to add a new DX Roc into my bag about every 6 months & my KC Rocs last even longer. When I say add a new disc to my cycle I don't mean my DX Roc I put in my bag around six months earlier broke in so much I can't use it, I mean it breaks into a next most overstable stability in my bag. You obviously have never cycled Rocs & have very limited experience with DX Mids & Putters. You know what plastic does suck as much as you said DX does? It's called Pro D from Discraft.

 

[DiscinFiend]

What about the San Marino and Ontario rocs?

Just read Three Putts posts on the first page & that is all you need to know about Rocs. He explains the Rancho, Sanny & Ontario molds very simply & it's easily understandable.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320

 

[Aim For The Chains]

...those are the top youtube comments bud'

DX and durable do not go hand and hand. I don't care what any of you say about cycling rocs (that's why you cycle them) so don't say DX is a durable plastic, seriously. If you play courses in the woods generally the ground which your disc lands on is much rougher from large downed trees, stumps, very compacted dirt, rocks etc.. I am not talking about hitting trees when you throw im saying if you play enough DG on a course that is truly rough a DX disc is nearly worthless UNLESS you don't want the actual DX mold and are looking for a flippy disc (not a roc)

I don't believe for a minute that a DX roc flies the same after heavy use 6 months... Maybe I just throw my mids wayyyyyy more than other discs but I don't see it at all when my premium plastics don't hold their stability even that long without some changes'

 

[disc qualified]

imho, rocs are quite possibly the most overrated disc ever

 

[Aim For The Chains]

not to mention DX seems to go from waxy soft crap to actually firm solid plastic so which DX do you want? All I hear from innova people is the "new dx" is junk?

 

[Brodysseus]

DiscinFiend, the Roc is not over molded, so it is useless...

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Don't worry... Innova is working on it'

 

[DiscinFiend]

...those are the top youtube comments bud'

DX and durable do not go hand and hand. I don't care what any of you say about cycling rocs (that's why you cycle them) so don't say DX is a durable plastic, seriously. If you play courses in the woods generally the ground which your disc lands on is much rougher from large downed trees, stumps, very compacted dirt, rocks etc.. I am not talking about hitting trees when you throw im saying if you play enough DG on a course that is truly rough a DX disc is nearly worthless UNLESS you don't want the actual DX mold and are looking for a flippy disc (not a roc)

I don't believe for a minute that a DX roc flies the same after heavy use 6 months... Maybe I just throw my mids wayyyyyy more than other discs but I don't see it at all when my premium plastics don't hold their stability even that long without some changes'

They do change over time that's why people like cycling them. It takes about six months to go from overstable to almost dead straight for me. You don't have to believe me but I'm not the only one who feels this way. DX Mids lose some stability pretty quickly but then start to age slower.

 

[DiscinFiend]

DiscinFiend, the Roc is not over molded, so it is useless...

I wouldn't be surprised if Innova makes a Roc with an over mold, they already did it with the Aviar/Nova. So you only carry over molds...you like the Atlas then don't you

 

[Brodysseus]

I wouldn't be surprised if Innova makes a Roc with an over mold, they already did it with the Aviar/Nova. So you only carry over molds...you like the Atlas then don't you

Haha, actually I throw KC/DX Rocs. And agree with all you have said about Rocs and DX. I just figured I'd go ahead and say what the MVP fanboys were implying/thinking.

 

[mashnut]

...those are the top youtube comments bud'

DX and durable do not go hand and hand. I don't care what any of you say about cycling rocs (that's why you cycle them) so don't say DX is a durable plastic, seriously. If you play courses in the woods generally the ground which your disc lands on is much rougher from large downed trees, stumps, very compacted dirt, rocks etc.. I am not talking about hitting trees when you throw im saying if you play enough DG on a course that is truly rough a DX disc is nearly worthless UNLESS you don't want the actual DX mold and are looking for a flippy disc (not a roc)

I don't believe for a minute that a DX roc flies the same after heavy use 6 months... Maybe I just throw my mids wayyyyyy more than other discs but I don't see it at all when my premium plastics don't hold their stability even that long without some changes'

Drivers and putters/mids wear very differently. The thicker, blunter nose on putters and mids makes them change flight much slower than the high speed stuff. I throw DX rocs. It takes about 6 months to break a new roc into a straight roc. It stays a straight roc for a year or two, then slowly breaks into a turnover roc. Currently in my bag I have a newish dx one that still holds all the lines I need from my overstable mid that I've been throwing 4 months, a dx one that's been in my bag for 1.5 years that's still plenty stable and goes dead straight even in a light headwind. My turnover roc has taken 4 years to get to where it's truly beat, and that's a useful beat not a flippy pos.

The course I play most has maybe 3-4 driver shots for me, so my putters and mids get a ton of use, and most of it is hard dirt with rocks. They hold up to that just fine, along with hitting plenty of trees at full power (I throw rocs 350'ish). DX rocs are plenty durable, it sounds like your only experience with that plastic is in thinner rimmed drivers (and I agree with you on those).

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I agree on the drivers vs mids/putters and majority of my experience IS with the drivers but started out my DG career throwing DX innova mids/putters and never found them to be very true to their intended flight paths after a little use-- yes they were still useable discs by all means but things like HSS and when the fade kicks in etc is constantly changing and don't stay in the (for lack of better words) "sweet" spot say as long as a more durable plastic does/will but understand it could take forever to reach different levels of stability, I also just like the fact they stay that way longer.

I am not saying you can't throw DX rocs without success but seems in this day and age there are many other rocs in other plastics which would make life much more simple than cycling a ton of them and figuring out which is which.

Serious question: why not throw champ rocs for OS/stable vs buying fresh DX? I really don't get it other than grip what is the benefit in doing this? It cant be any cheaper or more reliable bag etc? You have to cycle them to have the one you want for certain lines when you could get those lines off the shelf?

 

[BiggieSMLS]

I've played for over 5 years and just recently tried a DX Roc. Bought it used so its slightly broken in.. love it!

 

[mashnut]

I agree on the drivers vs mids/putters and majority of my experience IS with the drivers but started out my DG career throwing DX innova mids/putters and never found them to be very true to their intended flight paths after a little use-- yes they were still useable discs by all means but things like HSS and when the fade kicks in etc is constantly changing and don't stay in the (for lack of better words) "sweet" spot say as long as a more durable plastic does/will but understand it could take forever to reach different levels of stability, I also just like the fact they stay that way longer.

I am not saying you can't throw DX rocs without success but seems in this day and age there are many other rocs in other plastics which would make life much more simple than cycling a ton of them and figuring out which is which.

Serious question: why not throw champ rocs for OS/stable vs buying fresh DX? I really don't get it other than grip what is the benefit in doing this? It cant be any cheaper or more reliable bag etc? You have to cycle them to have the one you want for certain lines when you could get those lines off the shelf?

Because every time I break in another dx roc to straight, I have a backup for that slot in my bag. I have my rocs sorted in the garage, I have a pile of new ones, 10 straight ones and a few beat ones so that if I ever lose one of the rocs in my bag I don't have to wait for one to be ready to replace it. I still disagree that they change constantly, my current straight roc has flown the same for close to a year now, I know exactly what it's going to do. Ditto for the beat one, at this point even a point blank tree hit doesn't change the way it flies in a noticeable way.

The other part of the answer to your serious question is that none of the premium plastic rocs fly like a dx roc. They get more distance, have better glide, and the grip is way better. I have yet to throw any premium plastic mid that could replace my really beat roc for shots that start on a hyzer, flip up to dead straight for 275-300' then gradually finish right. Those premium plastic discs either are too stable and want to fade, or don't have the HSS to get that long straight flight segment. Also, I'd need 3-4 different molds to cover the shots I currently use my roc setup for, right now every mid shot has the same grip and the same feel in my hand which in my personal experience makes my mid shots more consistent.

All of that is why I do it. You're right that you can be a fantastic player without throwing base plastic discs, and without cycling rocs. I just disagree that my strategy has been made obsolete by newer discs and plastics.

 

[Puckstopper]

It takes about 6 months to break a new roc into a straight roc. It stays a straight roc for a year or two, then slowly breaks into a turnover roc.

Boy, it's the weirdest thing. I have discs that do the same thing. I call them "Hornet", "Buzzz", and "Comet" and they come off the rack doing what I need them to do. :clap:opcorn:

I just realized how Discraft heavy my mid-range lineup is, but I don't see the Tensor, Mako, Panther combo (my alternate midrange setup) kicking the Discraft triplets out of my bag any time soon.

 

[BrotherDave]

It basically boils down to a difference in philosophy. Borrowing some slang from football, throwing premium plastic mids is like having a bell cow RB in each stability slot whereas cycling DX Rocs is a "mid by committee" approach.

Another benefit of cycling base plastic molds, besides the general benefits of mold minimalism, is that you build up a good number of discs (cheaply) to throw for field practice or putting practice. You learn to throw better a lot faster when you have multiple discs of the same mold in different stages of wear b/c of familiarity with the mold and learning to make subtle adjustments in form to adjust to the nuanced differences in stability of the discs (improves line shaping precision). If I could start over again, I'd have a pile of DX Rocs and DX Eagles and that is it besides my putter. Would have drastically shortened my learning curve and I wouldn't have to fret over losing precious discs on risky holes (more confidence = less strokes) b/c I'd have cheap back ups ready like Mashnut alluded to.

 

[DiscinFiend]

It basically boils down to a difference in philosophy. Borrowing some slang from football, throwing premium plastic mids is like having a bell cow RB in each stability slot whereas cycling DX Rocs is a "mid by committee" approach.

Another benefit of cycling base plastic molds, besides the general benefits of mold minimalism, is that you build up a good number of discs (cheaply) to throw for field practice or putting practice. You learn to throw better a lot faster when you have multiple discs of the same mold in different stages of wear b/c of familiarity with the mold and learning to make subtle adjustments in form to adjust to the nuanced differences in stability of the discs (improves line shaping precision). If I could start over again, I'd have a pile of DX Rocs and DX Eagles and that is it besides my putter. Would have drastically shortened my learning curve and I wouldn't have to fret over losing precious discs on risky holes (more confidence = less strokes) b/c I'd have cheap back ups ready like Mashnut alluded to.

Because every time I break in another dx roc to straight, I have a backup for that slot in my bag. I have my rocs sorted in the garage, I have a pile of new ones, 10 straight ones and a few beat ones so that if I ever lose one of the rocs in my bag I don't have to wait for one to be ready to replace it. I still disagree that they change constantly, my current straight roc has flown the same for close to a year now, I know exactly what it's going to do. Ditto for the beat one, at this point even a point blank tree hit doesn't change the way it flies in a noticeable way.

The other part of the answer to your serious question is that none of the premium plastic rocs fly like a dx roc. They get more distance, have better glide, and the grip is way better. I have yet to throw any premium plastic mid that could replace my really beat roc for shots that start on a hyzer, flip up to dead straight for 275-300' then gradually finish right. Those premium plastic discs either are too stable and want to fade, or don't have the HSS to get that long straight flight segment. Also, I'd need 3-4 different molds to cover the shots I currently use my roc setup for, right now every mid shot has the same grip and the same feel in my hand which in my personal experience makes my mid shots more consistent.

All of that is why I do it. You're right that you can be a fantastic player without throwing base plastic discs, and without cycling rocs. I just disagree that my strategy has been made obsolete by newer discs and plastics.

:thmbup::clap: I agree 100% with everything Mashnut & BrotherDave posted. As a guy who cycles Rocs myself they expressed my exact feelings on this topic & why cycling discs is great. Since I started cycling my game has improved faster & my line shaping has improved a lot. Cycling KC/DX Rocs, Star Destroyers & KC Aviars has really helped show me that mold minimization is so important. I feel I know my discs better, knowing my discs better gives me more confidence when picking a disc & throwing. Cycling also helped me see how much overlap I really had in my bag & how many discs I carried that had a use that was to specific/a disc I rarely used. It taught me to shape more lines instead of having a lot of discs for every possible stability forehand & backhand. It was a great way to lower the number of discs I carry. I went from carrying around 30 discs to only 22 just switching to cycling & I probably will carry even less discs as I refine my bag even more.

 

[theabacus]

When I first started playing (about 7 years ago) I purchased a Roc. Didn't like it at all; wasn't really ready for it. In the past year or so, I've been really digging the Buzzz for shots around 300 feet. I recently decided to give the Roc another try. Still in the preminarily testing, but I am really enjoying how they wear in and get long, buttery smooth anhyzers. For me the Buzzz is point and shoot...which is great. However, when you really need to bend stuff around things, the Roc cycle--I think--is the way to go. Also my Buzzz has been getting a little to understable for me; seeing how a Roc3 fits in it's spot soon.

 

[OregonDG420]

hell ya man, rocs are my favorite disc they are amazing, holds any line you put it on. But I would not suggest R-pro, definitely try a KC pro roc, or a roc3.

 

[Agricolae]

...They get more distance, have better glide, and the grip is way better ... Also, I'd need 3-4 different molds to cover the shots I currently use my roc setup for, right now every mid shot has the same grip and the same feel in my hand which in my personal experience makes my mid shots more consistent...

Bingo. From a new KCPro to years old DX rancho warrior, there's not much missing. You're throwing the same disc with a range of flight patterns. I guess it can be seen as boring if one would rather search for THE mid-range in the latest plastic, or from the latest upstart company, but I think most longtime Roc throwers I know have found THE mid-range.

I prefer to miss the trees when I throw but if I don't I know the Roc is just getting better and more valuable (especially the KCPro, a 3-disc set of those in varying stabilities is a fine thing.)