Why host worlds?

[davetherocketguy]

We have tens of thousands of viewers already, and I've seen 5,000 people on-site spectating European Open with my own eyes.

That's nice for disc golf. But let me compare that number to other sports near where I live:

5000 fans is a good weekend night for the South Bend Cubs...Prior to the MLB Cubs winning the pennant their attendance record was in the 7700 neighborhood. This is a single A team loaded with players most people have never heard of. Seems like the local news reports 5k crowds there several times a year.

5000 fans regularly attend the local high school rivalry football game (Saint Joseph vs Lakeshore) here in Berrien Co. I know, I've been to many of those.

5000 fans is a good night at Kalamazoo speedway. Capacity is 6500 and I suspect they get at least 5k 3 or 4 times a year.

Van Andel Arena in Grand Rapids holds a little over 10k and will sell out for the Calvin vs Hope Basketball games. Two small DIII teams that outside of SW Michigan no one has ever heard of.

Every single one of these events are attended by people paying to watch. 5k at a dg tourney? I'll bet an awful lot of them are either participants, friends and family of participants all of whom most likely did not pay to watch. So when ru4por says tens of thousands, that means something like a weekend MLB game between average teams in the middle of the summer where people are coming and paying anywhere from $10/ticket to hundreds per ticket and they still manage to get 10k+. Like ru4por said...we are nowhere near that.

 

[New013]

Dude you're comparing sporting events that are long established as spectator sports that also have all the amenities to support family nights out.

That Single A team might be nobodies but it's more about just going to a baseball game than it is who is playing. You know if you go to any pro baseball game you're going to have food, souvenirs, seating, activities, mid inning hijinks... it's an established event people have been going to see for a long time.

You don't have any of these things at a dg tourney and you're probably lucky to have a nice restroom on property. It's going to take a long time to build these things up just like it took a long time for these other sports to build up. I still don't understand why people are trying to compare dg to these well established things.

If you want to make comparisons go find other fringe sports that our growing and compare dg to them in terms of how it's growing from a marketing/spectator perspective. As of now some of you sound like those people saying personal computers would never be a thing, not to say dg will ever be that big but just saying you don't know the future and have no clue where dg will be in 20, 50, 100 years. It might never get big or it might, we honestly don't know and shouldn't pretend to. Just let people who want to push to make it bigger and see where they get.

 

[JTacoma03]

New just nailed that response. :clap::clap:

My post was just a reply to that idea that disc golf will "never realize" those numbers, I'm saying we're already there. I wasn't saying that those numbers are comparable to the major sports or anything like that.

There's sports bigger than us, but our engagement rates for disc golf media are through the roof. We're definitely trending upward at a healthy clip. We will never look like those other sports, but the way people consume media/content is changing, and we're going to be right there for that change. Some other sports won't adapt to that as well.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Dude you're comparing sporting events that are long established as spectator sports that also have all the amenities to support family nights out.

Agree

That Single A team might be nobodies but it's more about just going to a baseball game than it is who is playing. You know if you go to any pro baseball game you're going to have food, souvenirs, seating, activities, mid inning hijinks... it's an established event people have been going to see for a long time.

Agree

You don't have any of these things at a dg tourney and you're probably lucky to have a nice restroom on property. It's going to take a long time to build these things up just like it took a long time for these other sports to build up. I still don't understand why people are trying to compare dg to these well established things.

If you want to make comparisons go find other fringe sports that our growing and compare dg to them in terms of how it's growing from a marketing/spectator perspective. As of now some of you sound like those people saying personal computers would never be a thing, not to say dg will ever be that big but just saying you don't know the future and have no clue where dg will be in 20, 50, 100 years. It might never get big or it might, we honestly don't know and shouldn't pretend to. Just let people who want to push to make it bigger and see where they get.

Why compare DG to these other things? I donno. What other point of reference do we have? There are no other "fringe" sports anything like DG. Ultimate maybe? Competitive eating - I guess? Pro-softball? 5k in a gallery sounds like a lot but my point was, in the grand scheme of things it really isn't.

Plus, I don't understand what the infatuation is with referring to DG as a "fringe" sport. DG is not fringe. Disc golf is disc golf. Nothing more. Nothing less. If it's own passionate players (that's us) keep referring to it as fringe, that is all it ever will be.

 

[davetherocketguy]

New just nailed that response. :clap::clap:

My post was just a reply to that idea that disc golf will "never realize" those numbers, I'm saying we're already there. I wasn't saying that those numbers are comparable to the major sports or anything like that.

There's sports bigger than us, but our engagement rates for disc golf media are through the roof. We're definitely trending upward at a healthy clip. We will never look like those other sports, but the way people consume media/content is changing, and we're going to be right there for that change. Some other sports won't adapt to that as well.

And guessing from your sig you have something to do with SpinTV. Just want to say I really liked your coverage of the MPO Masters a while back. Well done. Need to take some time to watch your other stuff on your Youtube channel.

 

[ru4por]

It doesn't matter what "we" count or don't, advertising execs for sure do not. You won't even get a meeting without quantifiable, validated numbers.




We have tens of thousands of viewers already, and I've seen 5,000 people on-site spectating European Open with my own eyes.

Really....my response was to the potential to attract national sponsorship. While I appreciate the importance of video viewership and a select overseas tournament attendance, it is not in the same ballpark as the spectator and marketing potential of sports garnering big sponsorship deals. Gatorade is never going to see a bunch of disc golfers watching disc golf videos, most of whom drink their product currently, as a market. I intentionally did not compare disc golf to any other sport or game. It remains my opinion that disc golf is not a spectator sport and will never be.

 

[esdubya]

Someone enlighten me here - what motivation is there to host one of these headaches?...am I way off base? Please tell me I am really curious about this process that sounds like an exercise in sadomasochism.

I'll try.. For any club or individual undertaking hosting a tournament, they usually start with a question of why?

I'm a big believer in mission statements. Your answer to why you are running something should be "it supports our mission statement". Craft a mission statement you can get behind, then do things to make that a reality.

I'll share our clubs:
"... is a volunteer organization that promotes the sport of disc golf in the [our local area] . Our goal is to see more people outside, enjoying the wonderful sport of disc golf in permanent installation courses in [our local area].

For us, (logistical issues aside) would running Worlds help support this mission statement?
I could probably answer yes, but really only if it resulted in more and/or upgraded courses.

 

[JTacoma03]

And guessing from your sig you have something to do with SpinTV. Just want to say I really liked your coverage of the MPO Masters a while back. Well done. Need to take some time to watch your other stuff on your Youtube channel.

Thanks! European Open is coming up next week so check that one out too I won't be there this year, I'll be spectating via YouTube like most everybody else - but I'm still excited!

Really....my response was to the potential to attract national sponsorship. While I appreciate the importance of video viewership and a select overseas tournament attendance, it is not in the same ballpark as the spectator and marketing potential of sports garnering big sponsorship deals. Gatorade is never going to see a bunch of disc golfers watching disc golf videos, most of whom drink their product currently, as a market. I intentionally did not compare disc golf to any other sport or game. It remains my opinion that disc golf is not a spectator sport and will never be.

That's fine, you're totally entitled to your opinion on the overall position of the game...but you put forth something as fact that wasn't. That's all I was saying. You can minimize the numbers if you choose, but that quantifiable data is exactly what we must continue gathering. In my analysis of our position, we 100% definitely have the numbers to get the ball rolling in conversations with bigger brands, we just don't have enough measured data yet to pitch it properly. That won't be the case much longer.

 

[Finny]

It remains my opinion that disc golf is not a spectator sport and will never be.

Because not enough people will want to watch? Or because it's not a good sport to watch?

 

[ru4por]

Because not enough people will want to watch? Or because it's not a good sport to watch?

I think it is both, Finny.

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's a great sport to watch discs fly... as long as they're yours.

 

[Steve West]

...only if it resulted in more and/or upgraded courses.

It really gets the attention of the course owners when the World Championship will be held there. Also, it gives you a hard deadline, so there is no "Sorry, not in this year's budget."

 

[Finny]

I think it is both, Finny.

Ok. I get the "not enough people" argument. Totally valid.

But I may never understand the "not cool enough" argument. I grew up going to ball golf tournaments. It is a HARD sport to watch in person, except for putting. The ball is tiny, obviously. You have no idea where drives are going until they land. The only reason it is so much more popular as a spectator sport is that it is so much more popular as a participant sport.

Everyone likes to watch people be world class at their favorite hobby. If more people liked disc golf, more people would watch. There is nothing inherently wrong with it as a spectator sport.

 

[ru4por]

Ok. I get the "not enough people" argument. Totally valid.

But I may never understand the "not cool enough" argument. I grew up going to ball golf tournaments. It is a HARD sport to watch in person, except for putting. The ball is tiny, obviously. You have no idea where drives are going until they land. The only reason it is so much more popular as a spectator sport is that it is so much more popular as a participant sport.

Everyone likes to watch people be world class at their favorite hobby. If more people liked disc golf, more people would watch. There is nothing inherently wrong with it as a spectator sport.

I don't think ball golf is a very good spectator sport either. I have been to several. I think the nature of both games, hurt their "spectatorness". To follow your favorite player, or even worse, players on different cards, you have to move all over a pretty big property. To watch my favorite player of most other sports I don't have to move at all. I also think disc golf in particular has a huge venue issue for packing in spectators. I would be pretty difficult to pack 15,000 fans on your local course.

 

[Finny]

I don't think ball golf is a very good spectator sport either. I have been to several. I think the nature of both games, hurt their "spectatorness". To follow your favorite player, or even worse, players on different cards, you have to move all over a pretty big property. To watch my favorite player of most other sports I don't have to move at all. I also think disc golf in particular has a huge venue issue for packing in spectators. I would be pretty difficult to pack 15,000 fans on your local course.

Well then both of your concerns are valid. So, that wraps that up.

As for venues, I'm not sure people realize how open the major ball golf courses are. Augusta National has way fewer trees than you think.

 

[Finny]

"You" being "most people." Not "ru4por."

 

[davetherocketguy]

That's an understatement. I have been fortunate enough to attend the PGA masters championship several times because well...every other year it's held my home town at a course called Harbor Shores. Great venue albeit a tad spread out. When you watch on TV it looks like a well tree'd course. It really isn't. Granted, it's nowhere near the scale of a PGA tour event it is quite large but I do find it interesting how TV makes it look versus what its really like. Finny hit the nail on the head there.

 

[rhatton1]

Advertising doesn't have to rely on spectator viewing alone. If noone ever watched a Disc golf tournament there are still many ways to monetise the participation in the sport with no negative effect on the participants. If you control the people playing in competitions, have control over their sign ups, their tournament information, their results etc. etc. then you can advertise at them, as you have very specific details about them (age bracket, address, etc) you can potentially direct advertising even better.

PDGA has a platform to do just that, last year they had around 3500 sanctioned events with lets say an average of 40 players at each ( i suspect that's low.) Let's say it's the same people at many of them, call it an average of 4 events per head. That's still around 40k unique people they potentially could have directed marketing at, again, and again through many different stages of each tournament process.

There's a reason why Pro Tour is partnering with U Disc and World tour with Skoorin or whatever it's called now. Everytime I open my scorecard app to record a score I could be being advertised to even if that is just seeing a headline banner against the events name rather than pop up adverts. Why are both systems pushing to replace paper in tournaments...

The sanctioned events are growing every year. The PDGA should have some pretty worthwhile clout if they can start using it effectively.

 

[Casey 1988]

Originally Posted by Finny View Post
Ok. I get the "not enough people" argument. Totally valid.

But I may never understand the "not cool enough" argument. I grew up going to ball golf tournaments. It is a HARD sport to watch in person, except for putting. The ball is tiny, obviously. You have no idea where drives are going until they land. The only reason it is so much more popular as a spectator sport is that it is so much more popular as a participant sport.

Everyone likes to watch people be world class at their favorite hobby. If more people liked disc golf, more people would watch. There is nothing inherently wrong with it as a spectator sport.

I don't think ball golf is a very good spectator sport either. I have been to several. I think the nature of both games, hurt their "spectatorness". To follow your favorite player, or even worse, players on different cards, you have to move all over a pretty big property. To watch my favorite player of most other sports I don't have to move at all. I also think disc golf in particular has a huge venue issue for packing in spectators. I would be pretty difficult to pack 15,000 fans on your local course.

Also do realize most Golf courses even local ones are going to be bigger then the average disc golf course unless you are making a long bomber course where no hole is shorter then 500 feet. Most of these long bomber courses are on the land of a ski resort on and around the ski hills with the upper half or all of the often taken out during the winter depending on how they use the rest of the land, like for XC Skiing or snowmobiling.

 

[DavidSauls]

The only reason it is so much more popular as a spectator sport is that it is so much more popular as a participant sport.

Everyone likes to watch people be world class at their favorite hobby. If more people liked disc golf, more people would watch. There is nothing inherently wrong with it as a spectator sport.

I disagree, on both accounts.

There are other aspects of golf that make it a successful spectator sport, with appeal beyond everyday golfers wanting to see someone play their sport, but better. The venues are beautiful, in a manicured and artificial sort of way. They exude money---not the players, but the clubhouses and surroundings---and plenty of people like to admire that. And watching the putts drift and curve, with such a small margin for error, and so much on the line, is suspenseful and amazing.

So I'm a non-golfer who'll watch golf on TV. Well, a virtual non-golfer, having tried it 3 times, all over 20 years ago.

In my opinion, disc golf isn't that interesting to watch, and can't be made so. Oh, it can be played in beautiful natural settings, but they don't have the same appeal. Or it can be put on golf courses, where it becomes a poor version of itself. Putting isn't as dramatic, and the schemes to make it harder won't make it more exciting, just shorten the length of made putts. It's not that exciting to people who play and admire how good the pros are; it's certainly not going to look exciting to non-disc-golfers.

It is true to a certain degree that people like watching their hobbies, done by the best. But only to a limited degree. A great number of activities remain very popular as hobbies and fringe sports, without drawing any spectators. So far, disc golfers haven't shown a great inclination to watch, even for free in person. Yeah, more disc golfers will be mean more viewers, but not enough to make it a major spectator sport.