Wooded courses strategy question.

[autocrosscrx]

I'm still a beginner, but hole 18 on ZBoaz is a poak and pray IMO.

The disc width line is ridiculous.

Yes, there are disc width lines. That's the point of the statement poke and pray. You CAN get through, but the lines are so tight that getting through involves as much luck as skill.

I don't suggest this is common, but to say it doesn't exist is false.

To be clear, I'm only referring to one particular hole as an example of poke and pray. I have no idea what the OP is dealing with, but given my one hole I feel meets that criteria, it is entirely possible one could design multiple holes with the same circumstance.

Take the par 5 that Uli nailed at Waco (I think, it was Texas for sure). It is less than 300'. Per scoring average it is probably a Par 4. But the line is so tight that most ding a tree early. Most=vast majority.

Point is there are holes that rely on luck to create challenge/reward IMO.

I'm not suggesting they should be changed. I think it is an element of this game. Not one that should be incorporated often, but it certainly exists.

I definitely play a couple of poke and pray holes. There is one particular hole and there really isn't even a line to walk to the basket. I think I've had to back track every time I've played it. Last time I played it, I missed badly on my drive, bounced off between 5 and 7 trees and dropped it about 4 feet from the hole. That didn't feel right, so I threw another shot and managed to miss every single tree. Ended up about 40 feet left and long, but the tree is inside an inner and outer circle of trees, so I had to lay up twice to even get a look at the basket. There is absolutely no relationship between execution and result.

 

[biscoe]

Yep, good point. I think the perception is sometimes regional. We play in the woods, a lot. Many golfers from areas that have predominantly open courses, think our wooded course are crazy hard and punitive.

That brings to mind something from Worlds 2000 at Cass Benton. There was a short straight hole in the woods with a steep slope down from right to left (no idea on the number)- I, being from VA, thought it possibly the easiest hole on the entire course- just a straight putter shot. I was playing with a guy from Texas who stepped up to it, said "I have no idea what to do here" and pancaked his disc on its back about halfway up the fairway.

 

[Dthunderchicken]

If one is poking and praying they'd do themselves better to take the time and analyze the hole more thoroughly. On an unfamiliar course I've sat down by the tee and just looked at the whole thing for quite a while. (Some co-players have found that annoying.) But sometimes the most obvious line isn't the best line. Hitting that line is a whole nuther story.

 

[Dthunderchicken]

There was a short straight hole in the woods with a steep slope down from right to left (no idea on the number)- I, being from VA, thought it possibly the easiest hole on the entire course- just a straight putter shot.

A bright red Element slowly motoring, dead straight through a green tunnel shot is a pretty sight.

 

[klodkrawler05]

Our local wooded course has a handful of blind holes also, when new to the course I can see how it might be frustrating if you're trying to fly through the course and don't know what to throw. But after playing it a handful of times you pretty much start to know "ok I've gotta beat that tree/bush/stump, with this disc and then I should be up around the corner"

The flip side to that is, I've played those holes a bunch and routinely get par instead of birdie and can't seem to figure out how to get close enough for a putt, then when I'm playing a 1 disc or limited disc round and have to throw a disc/shot I don't usually throw I get way closer.

So, I guess my advice would be just play it some more and don't be afraid to test out different discs/lines.

 

[Innova63]

"Wooded courses strategy question."



Miss the trees...






:thmbup:

 

[dreadlock86]

I'm still a beginner, but hole 18 on ZBoaz is a poak and pray IMO.

The disc width line is ridiculous.

Yes, there are disc width lines. That's the point of the statement poke and pray. You CAN get through, but the lines are so tight that getting through involves as much luck as skill.

which tee and which basket position? i'm inclined to disagree

 

[txmxer]

which tee and which basket position? i'm inclined to disagree

You are more experienced than I by far, but I play ZBoaz twice a week regularly since I started. 18 in the long tee is a coin toss IMO. Basket location isn't particularly relevant IMO. The creek significantly adds to the luck factor. It is definitely possible to get through, but of the 3 guys I regularly play with, I'd guess we are less than 50% being "dry" across the creek.

11 is a bit of luck because it's blind, but there are definitely lines.

18 even from the long pad is really short, hence my reason for not wanting to change it. Removing one tree along the creek bank on the basket side would completely change the hole.

When I say poke and pray, all the lines I see on the tee side are decent size gaps, but on the basket side of the creek there is a tree in the middle of each gap. You can throw the most perfect looking line that moves a bit the wrong way and center mass a tree on the far side ending up in the creek.

But I'm interested in learning. If you've got something for 18, I'm all ears.

 

[txmxer]

It was The Open at Belton, a Silver Series in Texas right before Texas States that had a 399' par 5 that averages .76 - 1.1 under par with multiple "albatrosses". It was also very broadly disliked by the best players, even Uli who got a 2 on it commented about not liking the hole.

So yeah, I'm suggesting they should be changed. I don't care what kind of crazy stuff you do on just for fun courses, I think wild holes can be a lot of fun, but if you're designing a competitive hole and design it in such a way that luck plays a drastically bigger point than on an average hole then it's crappy design.

Sorry I was referring to my personal nemesis.

Belton has some issues on several holes I think. There is some luck, but I don't think there was any question that Ricky played the best at that tournament this year.

 

[dreadlock86]

You are more experienced than I by far, but I play ZBoaz twice a week regularly since I started. 18 in the long tee is a coin toss IMO. Basket location isn't particularly relevant IMO. The creek significantly adds to the luck factor. It is definitely possible to get through, but of the 3 guys I regularly play with, I'd guess we are less than 50% being "dry" across the creek.

11 is a bit of luck because it's blind, but there are definitely lines.

18 even from the long pad is really short, hence my reason for not wanting to change it. Removing one tree along the creek bank on the basket side would completely change the hole.

When I say poke and pray, all the lines I see on the tee side are decent size gaps, but on the basket side of the creek there is a tree in the middle of each gap. You can throw the most perfect looking line that moves a bit the wrong way and center mass a tree on the far side ending up in the creek.

But I'm interested in learning. If you've got something for 18, I'm all ears.

we should chat about it on the tee box sometime. i'm long overdue for a round at the Z.

but for a quick comment, the trees in the middle of each gap on the far side of the creek don't necessarily block the gaps; it just means the gaps shift. the trick is to find the shot that moves with the gap.

it's also worth pointing out that sometimes parking it is not the shot. sometimes the best shot gets you to the edge of the circle.

also, i think the straight ahead position is the easiest and the far right one is definitely the trickiest.

 

[araytx]

I'm still a beginner, but hole 18 on ZBoaz is a poak and pray IMO.

The disc width line is ridiculous.

Yes, there are disc width lines. That's the point of the statement poke and pray. You CAN get through, but the lines are so tight that getting through involves as much luck as skill.

I don't suggest this is common, but to say it doesn't exist is false.

To be clear, I'm only referring to one particular hole as an example of poke and pray. I have no idea what the OP is dealing with, but given my one hole I feel meets that criteria, it is entirely possible one could design multiple holes with the same circumstance.

Are there some courses that rely on luck? -- well we have all kinds of folks out there calling themselves course "designers" but that doesn't mean it's the norm, especially not for championship courses. Too many people think "just because I've played disc golf a lot, I can design a course, too." It ain't like that -- not in the championship realm.

Take the par 5 that Uli nailed at Waco (I think, it was Texas for sure). It is less than 300'. Per scoring average it is probably a Par 4. But the line is so tight that most ding a tree early. Most=vast majority.

Point is there are holes that rely on luck to create challenge/reward IMO.

I'm not suggesting they should be changed. I think it is an element of this game. Not one that should be incorporated often, but it certainly exists.

I'm gonna disagree with you wholeheartedly there. I've played the Z routinely for years and there is an about 12-ft or so wide gap (anyhyzer if you are RHBH, hyzer for RHFH and LHBH), that goes across the creek to a landing zone about 40-50 feet right of the pin. Like every time. Meet me there and I'll show ya. I'd bet I can hit that line over the creek 80% of the time or better -- not getting wet, but of course, not parking it. Just like I said earlier, it's only poke & pray when you're trying to get to 20 feet or closer.


Are there some holes that rely on luck? Well, sure, we've got all kinds of folks out there calling themselves "course designers". But that's not the norm, especially at the championship level. Too many think "just because I've played a lot of disc golf I can be a great designer."

 

[R-Ogre]

Learn the lines, learn the landing zones, try some shots you wouldn't normally think about. Go in with a mindset of par golf instead of reaching the basket for a birdie look. Depending on the type of trees higher lines might be surprisingly better. Stand at the basket and look at which directions have an open approach. You might be surprised that what looks like something way off the fairway left or right actually gives you a better look to the basket than a more direct route.

If you don't have a forehand yet, get one. The benefits of being able to look at the basket or the gap when you're throwing and being able to make a big step-out forehand shot around a tree or out of the shule are huge.

Try really understable and really overstable plastic, you'll want something that will flex out no matter how much anny you put on it, and something that will hold an anny all the way down even on a touch upshot

 

[txmxer]

I'm gonna disagree with you wholeheartedly there. I've played the Z routinely for years and there is an about 12-ft or so wide gap (anyhyzer if you are RHBH, hyzer for RHFH and LHBH), that goes across the creek to a landing zone about 40-50 feet right of the pin. Like every time. Meet me there and I'll show ya. I'd bet I can hit that line over the creek 80% of the time or better -- not getting wet, but of course, not parking it. Just like I said earlier, it's only poke & pray when you're trying to get to 20 feet or closer.


Are there some holes that rely on luck? Well, sure, we've got all kinds of folks out there calling themselves "course designers". But that's not the norm, especially at the championship level. Too many think "just because I've played a lot of disc golf I can be a great designer."

I just want to be dry. I'll look for that line.

I have made it across many times, but had many really pretty throws catch first available on the other side of the creek.

Are releasing just left of the pin and turning back right? I tried that a couple of times but left it flat and caught small branches before the creek.

I have a pretty decent anhyzer throw that should do what you are suggesting. I'll give that a look and a try Thursday.

Right now I play Z with two guys on Thursday morning and Saturday morning starting at 6:30. Am Sundays we look for alternatives. We like the early start for the group.

If anyone wants to play a round with us, PM me, I'll send you my number.

I'm open to other times as well, but I'm usually only good for one round a day. Trying to improve my conditioning and drop my COVID gut, but it's a lot harder at 53, than it was 5-10 years ago.

 

[Flick Maniac]

I would much rather have a blind shot with a well defined fairway than a basket that is straight in front of me, but the fairway of which has randomly scattered trees especially close to the basket. Stuff you really cant aim to miss, you just throw in the general vicinity of the basket and see which of them you happen to hit or miss.

 

[araytx]

I just want to be dry. I'll look for that line.

I have made it across many times, but had many really pretty throws catch first available on the other side of the creek.

Are releasing just left of the pin and turning back right? I tried that a couple of times but left it flat and caught small branches before the creek.

I have a pretty decent anhyzer throw that should do what you are suggesting. I'll give that a look and a try Thursday.

Right now I play Z with two guys on Thursday morning and Saturday morning starting at 6:30. Am Sundays we look for alternatives. We like the early start for the group.

If anyone wants to play a round with us, PM me, I'll send you my number.

I'm open to other times as well, but I'm usually only good for one round a day. Trying to improve my conditioning and drop my COVID gut, but it's a lot harder at 53, than it was 5-10 years ago.

Thanks, I appreciate it. And I am 60 years old, so I get it, but obviously been playing a while longer. Nope, the clean line is not 'just left' and anhyzers right. It starts right of the pin (off the tee) and goes even more right.

I'll pm for the number

 

[Mushin No Shin]

R-Ogre touched on it... Standing behind the Basket and looking Back at the Fairway, even one with a Dogleg, is a worthwhile Endeavor in my experience