Would you like to see the PDGA limit number of disc carried in tournaments?

[StevenSeagal]

I mean no offense by this, but no… that's not what's happening. I've stated my opinion pretty clearly. Your disagreement has nothing to do with me not getting my head around something.

I have a problem seeing how you could have such a hard time processing what I'm saying while at the same time defending a truth claim that is WAY more complex than anything I've said. How in the world are you making incredibly detailed observations about the fundamental nature of skill and the magnitude of those skills in relation to others if that term is throwing you for a loop? The concept alone should be instantly recognizable to you even if you've never heard it framed that way.

Then again you did put yourself in the same company with someone that actually complained about having to read four paragraphs on a message board...

No, that's not my argument, and you're doing yourself no favors by trying to force this bizarre nature/nurture thing in there.

How is nature vs Nurture bizarre? It's one of the most debated subjects of our generation. They teach this stuff to middle school students! It also works as an analogy because the debate features many of the same aspects as this one.

The interconnected qualities of this issue and the concept of variables instead of constants are completely relevant to that discussion and this one.

I feel that a disc limit of 10-15 or so would increase strategy and shift the balance more toward skill - making a smaller set of discs hit the lines and shapes needed - over just pulling out a different disc.

As my math teacher used to say, "you need to show your work." At the very least you should be able to articulate why limiting disc limit is a separator, how you quantify skill and why its more accurate than the way we do it now, and how this new way of calculating skill would ACTUALLY express itself on the scoreboard.

 

[DirtyMeathook]

I really don't see how you can have a constructive debate about anything if you refuse to acknowledge or even refute a portion of said claim. My comments about the differences with BH and FH are 100% relevant to the discussion by evidence of the fact that everyone on your side seems to be parroting the same opinion whether they know it or not.

My experience throwing FH is best expressed when throwing my disc of choice FH, and while that same experience will help me to FH any disc that experience has a greater effect on my score when I pair it with the right equipment. Experience coupled with proper disc selection produces results greater than the sum of either added together. In other words because I have more experience throwing FH I can throw discs better suited for FH and as a result I can perform even better feats throwing FH with that disc. You're implying everything is a constant no matter the disc selection and so more experience with FH produces more favorable throws at either the same or near the same rate or magnitude as if I threw a disc not as well suited for FH.

That's an unsupported logical fallacy that no one in this thread has properly addressed. My argument ultimately flows from that observation. Someone with a larger set of skills will be unfairly impacted by a bag limit because the reasoning behind the rule is flawed and they will be forced to use less discs to compliment a wider variety of experience at a loss to the effectiveness of that experience.

Nobody in this entire thread is on your side, so I can't cite what their opinions might be, but you are just continuing to beat a dead horse. Again, the FH v BH disc selection argument has been discussed as much as "what is par" and "roc v buzzz" on this forum, so I'm not wasting my time with that again. Go bump one of those threads if you feel so strongly about that. Lets assume there are discs which are better suited for FH, if I were to concede that, it still doesn't change the crux of this argument.
The guy who can throw a variety of ways, COULD STILL THROW A VARIETY OF WAYS, even with one disc. He would still be able to take advantage of the fact he can throw FH's and overhands with that one disc, while the guy who can only throw one way would only be able to hit a single line. He wouldn't be able to throw an US disc to hit turnover lines, or a super OS disc to hit hard cutting hyzer lines, something a guy who throws one way relies on.
It seems you are beginning to see how illogical your initial statement was, based on how hard you are trying to steer this argument in a different direction, so I'll just leave it at that. You seem like an otherwise intelligent fellow, if the fact not a single person is siding with you doesn't alert you that you're on the wrong side of this, nothing will. So, I bid you adieu.

 

[DirtyMeathook]

iacas you're not going to get through to our friend Steven. He wants to try to convolute an otherwise simple debate, because his position can't stand on it's own. Nature vs Nurture!? Seriously?
Who would be at an advantage with 1 disc, a guy who throws 1 way, or a versatile player? That is the argument. A single sentence. If you can't reach a conclusion from that one question, using simple logic, it's just not going to happen. One can write a thesis paper, it still doesn't change the simplistic nature of the argument

 

[BrotherDave]

iacas you're not going to get through to our friend Steven. He wants to try to convolute an otherwise simple debate, because his position can't stand on it's own. Nature vs Nurture!? Seriously?
Who would be at an advantage with 1 disc, a guy who throws 1 way, or a versatile player? That is the argument. A single sentence. If you can't reach a conclusion from that one question, using simple logic, it's just not going to happen. One can write a thesis paper, it still doesn't change the simplistic nature of the argument

It depends on the 1 disc and the 1 way. If it's a fast driver suitable for FH and the one way is FH, the FH guy has an advantage over the versatile player b/c versatile guy won't be able to FH as well as the FH dominant guy and will be limited to overhand, spike hyzers, other unconventional throws and the aforementioned inferior FH. If it's a FH friendly course the versatile guy has practically no chance.

 

[Dan Ensor]

I wouldn't mind a "1 caddy" rule. I don't want to feel the earth shake from armies of caddies as Rico or Feldy walk to their disc.

As far as limiting discs ... idk. PGA definitely isn't a fair example, since they limit clubs, but not balls. You could play a different type of ball on each hole if you wanted. So you might say their possible unique equipment action is limited to 14x18. Far more than I'd ever want to carry.

 

[StevenSeagal]

Nobody in this entire thread is on your side, so I can't cite what their opinions might be, but you are just continuing to beat a dead horse.

You're extremely fixated on trying to take me down a notch dude.

Again, the FH v BH disc selection argument has been discussed as much as "what is par" and "roc v buzzz" on this forum, so I'm not wasting my time with that again.

Go bump one of those threads if you feel so strongly about that. Lets assume there are discs which are better suited for FH, if I were to concede that, it still doesn't change the crux of this argument.

This is an argument of your making. You made the claim about playing with a single disc. Why the hell are you are complaining about having to defend the argument you made?! IS this like self harm message board style or something?

The guy who can throw a variety of ways, COULD STILL THROW A VARIETY OF WAYS, even with one disc. He would still be able to take advantage of the fact he can throw FH's and overhands with that one disc, while the guy who can only throw one way would only be able to hit a single line. He wouldn't be able to throw an US disc to hit turnover lines, or a super OS disc to hit hard cutting hyzer lines, something a guy who throws one way relies on.

You still don't understand my point. I'm not saying the BH & FH guy is less versatile. I've never said that. You've consistently misinterpreted everything I've said to the point where I'm starting to think this is an elaborate troll. I'm going to try to explain this one more time.

I've spent time developing a FH throw and now I can throw FH. I can throw any disc FH, but my throws are exponentially better when I pair them with a disc that compliments the throw I'm trying to achieve. Since mechanically FH and BH is different I might use different discs to shape identical lines BH or FH and while I could hypothetically put any disc on any line I am still nonetheless exponentially better when I pair my throw with a complimentary disc.

 

[roggenb3]

TOTY 2016

 

[DavidSauls]

TOTY 2016

ADGT locked up that award 6 months ago.

 

[iacas]

I have a problem seeing how you could have such a hard time processing what I'm saying while at the same time defending a truth claim that is WAY more complex than anything I've said. How in the world are you making incredibly detailed observations about the fundamental nature of skill and the magnitude of those skills in relation to others if that term is throwing you for a loop? The concept alone should be instantly recognizable to you even if you've never heard it framed that way.

If you say so.

Then again you did put yourself in the same company with someone that actually complained about having to read four paragraphs on a message board...

I did? But okay.

Rather than rip on other people, perhaps you could just be nicer?

How is nature vs Nurture bizarre? It's one of the most debated subjects of our generation.

Because this isn't a nature vs. nurture argument. I understand that you see it as a similar thing, but we're not discussing whether being gay is nature or nurture. We're not discussing how much nature vs. nurture leads to alcoholism, or a person's IQ, or whatever.

They teach this stuff to middle school students! It also works as an analogy because the debate features many of the same aspects as this one.

I disagree. It's that simple.

The interconnected qualities of this issue and the concept of variables instead of constants are completely relevant to that discussion and this one.

I disagree.

As my math teacher used to say, "you need to show your work." At the very least you should be able to articulate why limiting disc limit is a separator, how you quantify skill and why its more accurate than the way we do it now, and how this new way of calculating skill would ACTUALLY express itself on the scoreboard.

I feel I've done so a few times.

Now, I wish you nothing but the best Steven, but I'm done chatting about this with you. I've got my opinion, you've got yours. We disagree.

Take care.

 

[DanJon]

iacas you're not going to get through to our friend Steven. He wants to try to convolute an otherwise simple debate, because his position can't stand on it's own. Nature vs Nurture!? Seriously?
Who would be at an advantage with 1 disc, a guy who throws 1 way, or a versatile player? That is the argument. A single sentence. If you can't reach a conclusion from that one question, using simple logic, it's just not going to happen. One can write a thesis paper, it still doesn't change the simplistic nature of the argument

I think you're making a new argument with the one disc idea.

The original argument was that someone with a limited disc selection (15-20), would be more skilled and show more versatility than the person with 25-30+ discs.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I really think some people here underestimate the ability to make a OS disc fly on a anhyzer line or US disc on a hyzer line for unique flights vs just rely on xyz stabilty for said flight. Very different shots which all require good execution. You can pretend that having more molds is a crutch for a player but it truly just opens up the line shaping ability.

This ia coming from my experience playing 1-2-3 whatever disc rounds plus 20+ disc rounds. I can tell you 100% the more tools you have the better as a experienced player. I was always fine with a handful of molds when i didnt know how the hell to actually throw. Dont get me wrong i can make a few discs do work but that isnt the adavanced point IMO of this thread which ive expressed from the get go.

Manipulating different flights from different stabiltity with release angles might be the most fun part of this game. Why some people want to take the fun out of DG is beyond me...from the run ups to discs etc-- lol.

 

[iacas]

Manipulating different flights from different stabiltity with release angles might be the most fun part of this game. Why some people want to take the fun out of DG is beyond me...from the run ups to discs etc-- lol.

I don't see it as taking any fun out. Heck, I think a limit would increase the fun. Not substantially or anything, but I don't see it as a negative either.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I don't see it as taking any fun out. Heck, I think a limit would increase the fun. Not substantially or anything, but I don't see it as a negative either.

I mean.. Is this not the most boring dg video you have ever seen?!



#iacasdgfantasy

 

[scarpfish]

I don't see it as taking any fun out. Heck, I think a limit would increase the fun. Not substantially or anything, but I don't see it as a negative either.

The thing is, in a specialty tournament, where limited discs and choosing what to bag are the emphasis, I think it would be fun.

In a regular PDGA event where the emphasis is getting the lowest score using whatever legal tools are available, not so much.

 

[iacas]

The thing is, in a specialty tournament, where limited discs and choosing what to bag are the emphasis, I think it would be fun.

In a regular PDGA event where the emphasis is getting the lowest score using whatever legal tools are available, not so much.

As I've said, my opinion is different than yours. But I've always been interested in the strategic side of things, and that sort of stuff. I find that kind of stuff fun.

 

[Dan Ensor]

So would a limit on the number mean no mid-round additions/replacements?

 

[DanJon]

With the way some tournaments are set up, not everyone would have access to backups.

What if the course isn't within reasonable distance from parking?

What if you didn't drive there in the first place?

 

[scarpfish]

With the way some tournaments are set up, not everyone would have access to backups.

More specifically, there would be unequal (and hence unfair) access to backups based on factors that shouldn't come into play.

 

[DavidSauls]

I assume a limit would include a no-midround-replacements rule.

If it didn't, you can bet you'd have some players trying to swap out discs mid-round, before or after water holes or when the wind changes or just on a whim, probably pushing the time limits. (I know I used to do this when I carried a small bag).

Then, with such a rule, would you need to monitor players to prevent them from visiting their strategically-parked car during the round? Or keep track of not just the number of discs, but which discs, they are carrying?

*

I understand what iacas is saying. The benefits of a disc limit would be in the strategy of choosing discs for a given course, or conditions, which would be interesting. And adding the challenge of doing more with less---demonstrating the skill that, with any given disc, you can throw it on more than one flight path, and more flight paths than you otherwise would.

Though, in my opinion, the value of the latter is negligible. Even if you stipulate that it's true, it doesn't significantly enhance the game.

To me, the vast majority of the non-representative poll respondents, and I suspect an overwhelming majority of tournament players, those benefits aren't attractive enough to implement a rule, in light of the many downsides enumerated in this thread.

It would be interesting as an X-tier experiment, or non-sanctioned. But not to be compelled by a rule change.

 

[lyleoross]

Dear PDGA,

Would you please offer a limited disc option for tournaments so this discussion will go away? Oh wait, you mean TDs can already do that if they want. Nobody does. Why is that?

It simple enough, the guys who think this is a good idea are quite allowed to run tournaments doing this. They should.