~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

It's been a while and I've made some changes, some are helping some are issues still.

This first video is BH. I have recently changed my grip (disc more in palm, deep flight plate grip rather than index/thumb pinch) and am fighting with nose issues depending on the day. I have focused on not dragging my left arm/side behind me during my throw. I thought I was getting it in/forward for the weight transfer, but apparently not. I am bringing my left arm forward but it is still away from my body, then seems to get out ahead of my axis during/after the throw.

The first 2 throws in this video are ~70% power with a mid and then fairway, the type of power I would use for ~300' on a mid and 330-350' for a fairway. The 3rd throw from the back view was ~400' with a mellow Destroyer.

I was having nose angle issues like I said today, but I felt good disc speed. My mids were going well. Drivers had good ejection speed, but I could see them stalling/braking at the end of flight and it was killing lots of distance. When I did get a Destroyer nose down enough to hold a turn the whole flight (hyzer flip to turn) and then fade forward at the end I got ~425', but nothing about the form/velocity felt different.

Possible issues:
-back arm too far away from body
-upper body leaking forward a bit...maybe get plant foot out farther?
-is hip/shoulder separation before transfer/shift ok?
-I started getting the disc closer to my chest after filming these shots and it felt better, I didn't include any of those though

https://vimeo.com/166433614

FH form:
I have been maxing out my FH line drives with speed 10+ discs on flat/hyzer flip shots from 310-330' for a while. I am happy with my accuracy, consistency, and the relatively low impact of these shots. But I would like to add some distance finally.

This video I show 3 different power levels to see if stuff goes wacky at some point. First is a mellow putter flick, what I would use for up to 100-150' approach. Second is a Teebird at 60-70%. Third is a drive that is as hard as I want to throw a forehand, which will get me up to 330' on a rope.

I can see that I am staying on my rear instep rather than going up onto the toes, is this costing power/transfer? As well, is my spine tilting too much forward at the finish (shoulders drift too far forward)? Any obvious ways to get more velocity without killing my arm?

https://vimeo.com/166433782

Sorry if the video player isn't quite as convenient.

 

[sidewinder22]

BH - You are moving too much right to left on tee pad/too closed instead of striding straighter and turning further back. The rear arm is swinging your upper body/shoulders around instead of bracing straight into the front leg and anchoring your axis. When someone yells brace for impact - what do you instinctively do? You pull your arms and legs and head into your body(tighten your core) and make a stupid face(exhale).

FH - your elbow is leading too much and doesn't fully extend/release through.

 

[slowplastic]

Excellent, thanks again. I think the shoulder turn back/load is a byproduct of me worrying about getting my rear arm "forward" again during the throw instead of dragging behind. Obviously there are issues. I will focus on getting my left shoulder blade at the target in the reach back (like I used to) and then try to get my left hand to my thigh...or actually grab my leg with it during the throw. I hope this keeps things tighter and also stops that forward drift afterwards.

The FH advice seems good, I wouldn't have picked up on that. I have noticed that pro's seem to get their FH snap "on" the disc and my hand is snapping later than theirs. I bet it's the leading elbow thing that causes me to miss this to line up. It feels like I release my forearm "at" the target and my wrist snap is sideways. When I see pro's their arm release is more sideways and the snap is happening at and just after disc ejection. For example this first shot of McBeth:



I know quite a few people who can power a FH farther than me, but I've never been jealous because I have decent consistency. But one guy I saw throw a FH 400-425' with little effort and that is what is making me realize I am missing something big. So this elbow thing I'll definitely try to sort out. Any advice on how it should "feel"?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Bh: I'll try to screen cap it tomorrow when I'm not on a phone. Your shoulders aren't 90° from Your extended arm. Basically, you're not getting the disc deep enough into the power pocket. The extension is happening too soon, so that instead of getting hand on the outside at center chest - you're starting the extension already.

SW is better with the brace angles, but to my eyes - the balance and brace look good.

My concern would be to move the arc forward. Starting point more right pec, allowing the timing of the shoulder opening to sync up to the ejection.

If I'm looking at your film in the field, I'd want to see that 90° from shoulders to extended arm.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[slowplastic]

Bh: I'll try to screen cap it tomorrow when I'm not on a phone. Your shoulders aren't 90° from Your extended arm. Basically, you're not getting the disc deep enough into the power pocket. The extension is happening too soon, so that instead of getting hand on the outside at center chest - you're starting the extension already.

SW is better with the brace angles, but to my eyes - the balance and brace look good.

My concern would be to move the arc forward. Starting point more right pec, allowing the timing of the shoulder opening to sync up to the ejection.

If I'm looking at your film in the field, I'd want to see that 90° from shoulders to extended arm.

Thanks. I have some things to change so don't feel like you need to waste time marking up still shots.

I noticed I wasn't getting the far edge of the disc close enough to my sternum in the power pocket, after the last set that I filmed. I threw a few discs like that and crushed a Roc pretty good (the field I was throwing on has no markers before ~420' so I really have no idea how far because it was nowhere near that), but I was tired and inconsistent by then. I think getting my left side more compact to my body and getting the disc close to my sternum in the power pocket will change a few things with my timing and feel. But I'll keep in mind to experiment with when to open up and hopefully that ejection will line up with the shoulder swing. I know what you're getting at though.

 

[slowplastic]

@SW22 that makes sense. I used to swing a bat with a linear mechanic and I think that way of thinking has carried over to the FH throw...I'm getting to the snap point with what feels like added velocity and then snapping the hit point. Instead I have to power through the hit point while stacking levers. That drill seems great for getting the weight/timing to work for itself. I have to find something to swing and get that happening.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

You've always been a huge help around here - I'm happy to repay the favor... I'm sure you've got this worked out now, but I wanted to point this out:

Caps Left to Right:

1. Disc is swooping. I have had this habit myself and know it well... if you can keep the disc flat - good things happen.
2. Off arm, tighten it up. White line is the start of the extension, happening to soon. Blue line shows the adjusting swoop.
3. Off arm is slowing your shoulders, and the timing got off because the arc started too soon. shoulders started, then stopped.
4. Now the shoulders are left behind and your extension has your arm at maybe 120 degrees instead of 90.

 

[slowplastic]

@HUB
Thanks, I can see that it's almost like my left arm is coming forward, hitting and stopping, then dragging behind while just swinging through. Like sloshing water into the side of a bucket...it will rush forward then bounce back after. I just need to get that stupid arm in and down like McBeth does and hopefully it will tighten up my speed but more importantly keep my axis balanced and let me rotate through instead of drift/swing through with my left side.

The disc angle thing I was disappointed with too, I saw it in the video. I know that is an issue for me, but I believe it was even worse than my normal (not great) yesterday. I was having nose angle issues and trying all sorts of key turn and weird things to get the nose down. I thought I was angling the disc counterclockwise at reachback like Eagle and Jussi do, then going into handshake position with a flat disc. Instead I was doing that counterclockwise angle between reachback and power pocket. I'll work on that and getting my nose angles sorted. I feel like I had the arm speed for consistent 420' golf shots yesterday even with some of these issues, but the nose angle was eating most of them down to 380-400' instead.

It's all relatively small adjustments from here upwards, huh? But being small doesn't make them any less crucial or difficult.

@SW
You are so right about the elbow thing, thanks for pointing it out. I was stumped as to how I was missing 70'+ of "casual" power from the big guys. I haven't thrown a disc yet but just snapped some towels (there are 1000 ways to snap a towel but only a couple will make a disc fly...I am aware), but I can tell my elbow forward way was to get my arm up to speed then crack that whip (the disc) to eject at the target. Keeping my elbow/arm more as a unit it feels more like my baseball swing and my arm wants to finish around to my side. I power through with the towel to snap it, and it feels at least as powerful. But more importantly it feels like body mechanics will add power when I get it sorted out...I was already feeling almost capped out with what I was doing which is why I wanted help.

I'm not looking forward to losing consistency with the FH temporarily, but I can tell the mechanics will be better. I just hope it won't be too painful a transition heh

 

[slowplastic]

I haven't had a field work session yet, but I played a casual round today with some extra tee shots, and tried to work on a couple things.

SW22 mentioned I am too closed and right to left in my strides. I tried to be a bit more mellow with my steps and keep my left arm in. On power shots I was releasing ~10 degrees right, so basically just how I was throwing before (but now "off" aim). Obviously I need some field work to figure out my release angles with the strides. But, do you think I am opening up/starting the shoulder portion too early as HUB mentioned, which is causing my releases to go a bit right and why I have gone to too closed of a stride?

 

[sidewinder22]

Probably has to do with your off arm not countering the throw. If you practice throw in a pool you will figure out the counter swim move that PP, GG, and Avery use.

 

[slowplastic]

Sounds good, I'll focus on that arm as I know that's one of the main issues currently. I wish I could throw like Paige Pierce.

 

[slowplastic]

I had a field session today, and focusing on loading my shoulders in the reachback and then getting my left hand down to my thigh helped tighten things up and get a really consistent release angle/minimal spray to the right, and feel good balance. I am still having nose angle issues, which were amplified by a headwind one direction and tailwind the other direction. But I can tell it's the right direction, since putters were flying really well (they don't care about slight nose up). The arm speed on drivers feels good, but with better arm speed and slightly wrong nose angles comes either distance killing stalls or some pretty hefty turnovers aided by the wind towards the ground. It'll get sorted out, it's improving, but annoying to not see the disc "do the work" and how far I could be throwing.

But, my FH has gone to crap. I tried changing the form to keep the elbow more in/as a unit and just "going for it" like it's my real throw, and it was bad. I toned it down a bit and the hit feels mushy still, where the disc wants to leave early and drag on my fingers rather than snap off like my old throw. I suppose I need to start off slow with the putters and mids from within 150' again. I think I was trying too hard to not lead at all with my elbow, rather than just not as much as I was.

 

[slowplastic]

After watching more pro FH video I see that they lead the elbow a bit and the arm releases around it. Today I worked on my FH on the course as an adjustment rather than overhaul, and it was successful. It will take time to adjust as I have some wobbles, but I already have at least as much velocity. With putters and mids it was a bit hard to range stuff farther than 100' because with ~70% the effort I would get the same distance as before. Very easy 200'+ putter flicks. I'm looking forward to gaining consistency and losing OAT so I can put more into it. I am having problems with the disc sliding off my middle finger occasionally (2 finger stacked grip).

But just to put this in perspective if anyone is having issues, before it felt like I was getting arm speed into a "snap", the whole "steely stop" stuff that used to be talked about made sense. What I was doing today (and have felt occasionally in the past on FH hyzer shots more often than flat shots) is that the arm just swings with a pop/sling of the disc. It feels more like a slinging motion rather than a crack the whip motion.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok I shot some video today. I'm keeping my rear arm in more than before, but 95% of the time it's not driving inwards like McBeth. The sideview throw is a Teebird...I don't know how far because it was 5' high (so hit the ground probably 300-330' away) but it just blasted out of my hand. When I found that shot in video...I got my back arm in nice and tight and it made my balance proper. I'll keep working on getting my back arm down and in/close, it obviously is keeping me balanced.

Is my X-step direction better than before? Am I too tilted over (in hyzer type of body angle...look at the behind view shot, that was a flat release line drive)?

When I slowed down all my side view shots I am getting the disc off plane by my right pec, my forearm is above my elbow and then it fixes itself when I am swinging out to release. I need to work on keeping my planes proper. Maybe I'm telling myself to "drive" too hard into the power pocket and that is compressing things/getting my disc above my elbow. Either way I need to fix it.

I'm not seeing distance increases yet, but I'm honing in on what is making the good throws happen, to get those motions more consistent.

https://vimeo.com/168261693

 

[sidewinder22]

The side-view you aren't getting forward from behind you, your stride is too far away/off line. Your elbow should pass over the front knee. Your elbow stays behind the knee/balance behind heel.

The behind tee, your balance is slightly better and finish forward, but not really getting weight into front from behind as your stride is not inline enough.

 

[slowplastic]

Elbow over front knee - cool I'll think of it that way. Does it feel like your plant leg bows out to the right after the throw when you are striding toward the target more like that? (You can see in AJ video how his knee does that as well...is this ok?)

I'm hoping that getting this direction correct will help my hips open more "at" the target like Paige Pierce...I definitely keep noticing my hips are angled rather than forward at the hit.

Also AJ has the high to low pull from reachback. Obviously I will keep trying to sort out my planes. But do you think this robs power as well, or is it more a consistency issue? (When I get lazy I am more likely to turn stuff over and it is very obvious when I look at the slow-mo of my throws why that happens)

 

[sidewinder22]

After the throw - in the finish? It just feels like a dynamically angled squat/thrust into the hit, then the pivot is almost weightless so there's very little pressure. It looks like you lift your toes up early, so you get flat footed/balance behind heel too much.

Not quite sure what you mean by your hips at the hit. The turn angle is not really important, look at Wiggins hips inline to target. He gets full hip "turn" via extension.

Avery's swing is slightly high to low or anhyzer/nose down, but he is totally upright and his swing plane is relatively horizontal/flat. His footwork is spectacular.

 

[slowplastic]

So in a couple shots it seems like Paige gets very fast hip rotation, you can see how they are facing forward just after release. But I saw some other shots that look more closed. Looking at Wiggins and some other power throwers I can see that they don't need to open fully forwards. I was thinking of the analogy to a baseball swing where your hips are typically 90 degrees when you release the bat. But this is not the same here.

In the shot of Will from the front, you can see how is leg is rotated and his plant knee is "outwards" (red), while I am drawing his brace axis as the blue arrow. But, I also looked at lots of thrower's footage and can see that this is pretty typical.

I haven't experienced the whole "upward" release at pivot, but I can see that in lots of video of pro's. I'll try to work on how I transfer into that foot (direction of transfer and angle of brace).

 

[slowplastic]

I had a bit of a breakthrough with my left arm today. I need to throw some shots in the field to see what my distances are. But, I just wanted to bump this to see if this is an appropriate way to think about it:

I watched this video, specifically Cat's left arm:



It looks like she's just punching straight down. Instead of doing a Schusterick-like turn away and then trying to get my shoulder and arm in, I tried just going from left shoulder/elbow at the target, to punching downwards. It is a conceptually different thing...not bring the arm in but down. First shot trying it I nearly put a star Teebird into a slightly uphill (6-10') basket 320' away on a frozen rope that was never higher than the basket.

I'm excited to try this some more and I hope that it solves some of my problems. I've also been feeling more comfortable with getting the transfer to my plant foot, but I still have to get my exact balance sorted. I did bomb a few drives this week that felt great.