~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

FH, your elbow starts going forward before your shoulder/weight shifts/front foot plants. You are putting a lot of stress on your elbow with it leading so far ahead of your weight and shoulder and putting a very large angle on it.

Got it. I'll try to get the feel of letting my hips/torso turn my upper arm before adding to the motion.

 

[sidewinder22]

I can see your pain. This is as far forward as my elbow gets from my shoulder and my lower arm is already swinging around. My elbow is basically at my spine/center of mass releasing the lower arm forward, while your elbow is well ahead of your spine/center of mass trying to release. Also looks like your shoulders are open, while mine are still closed.

 

[slowplastic]

By my shoulders being open, do you mean relative to my hips? I feel like sometimes I pull my left shoulder back, which I know doesn't help things but it is that stupid "feels faster" mentality, like when people with poor BH form still run into their throw.

Seeing your side view with elbow in plane with hips/spine essentially is a good visual to me. I'll think of it that way to try to keep my arm and upper body connected rather than contorted like it is now.

The crappy thing with forehand is it's like throwing overhand, where we are so conditioned to think throwing it harder means it will go farther. It doesn't. Form just goes to crap instead so you end up throwing the same distance but with way more effort and risk.

 

[sidewinder22]

Great, thanks. I definitely do the "leave the disc in place" thing, but I think too early on. I especially noticed it with this last video. I agree too with my tilt in this video...in some other throws I felt the "pop up" out of the brace and very in balance, whereas in this throw I felt a bit leaned back like I would throw the disc too high. It's likely slightly better in some other throws I had but probably pretty similar.

The disc curl is definitely a problem of mine. It is better than before. I will continue with the wide reachback, and do that even later and keep it low. I hope the combination of these things with a wide upper arm to torso angle will keep the disc on the swing plane, rather than my usual pulling the disc forward which makes it bunch up/curl my arm.

Yeah, you leave it, but too far back or early depending on how you look at it.

Your arm is more than wide enough, maybe even too wide at the top of the backswing. The issue is your shoulder and elbow not swinging on the same plane. You pull your elbow inward/downward from your shoulder instead of swinging it outward/upward forward. Picture having a table perpendicular to your spine at nip-sternum height and it always matches your spine tilt. You would be hitting the table with your elbow during your swing, instead of swinging the elbow just above the table all the way around.

 

[slowplastic]

That makes sense. If I do my RH baseball swing I keep my lead elbow above the bat, it feels like an upward swing trajectory, and my lead shoulder does not bunch into my face. I can see the issue I have with RHBH where my shoulder is getting bunched up. I can feel how doing the elbow motion almost "upward" compared to my normal makes me feel like I am on top of the disc and there is a gap between my shoulder and face.

This is good to know so at least I have an idea of what will solve the problem.

 

[sidewinder22]

By my shoulders being open, do you mean relative to my hips? I feel like sometimes I pull my left shoulder back, which I know doesn't help things but it is that stupid "feels faster" mentality, like when people with poor BH form still run into their throw.

Throwing shoulder is past your spine/open - nothing left to leverage it forward with.

The crappy thing with forehand is it's like throwing overhand, where we are so conditioned to think throwing it harder means it will go farther. It doesn't. Form just goes to crap instead so you end up throwing the same distance but with way more effort and risk.

I strongly disagree about throwing hard overhand = farther. The long toss drill is about throwing easy/loose/long to throw farther. The only difference from overhand vs sidearm is the leverage is at 90 degree different angles and more natural to feel overhand and can be thrown harder. There is also some difference since we need to spin the disc on it's axis while a baseball doesn't matter. I've been told I have the laziest FH in disc golf because it looks so effortless.

 

[slowplastic]

Throwing shoulder is past your spine/open - nothing left to leverage it forward with.

Oh I see. That makes sense. Seems like I'm consistently trying to jump the gun with my FH and BH throws.

I strongly disagree about throwing hard overhand = farther.

Me too, I just mean that playing in average baseball/softball leagues people just try to crush throws rather than throw properly. Or think people throw harder than them because they are stronger. I know people throw harder than me because I'm not doing it right. Of course being stronger would be nice too...

 

[slowplastic]

Ok, more video. No forehand, but I went back to the basics and kept my elbow moving with my hip/torso. Feels much safer like before, and I just trust that the levers will give me the same velocity. And they do. I'll just keep working on it like that for a bit and hopefully the speed will slowly ramp up in a safe manner.

For my backhand video below, I tried to pump the disc forward during my left foot step. I think my reachback is better timed now, but is it sill a fraction too early? Or else maybe start my hip drive while still reached back for another split second? I had much better balance in the follow through, and I believe I am getting on top of the plant foot much better. It feels better than before for sure, and my average release is now ~2mph faster.

However, the problem is still that elbow down, shoulder in. I tried so many things. I tried to throw hyzers, I tried to shift my elbow upwards. Every time I looked at video it was still shrugged into my face. I am reaching back with the inside edge of the disc (opposite edge to my hand) upwards relative to my hand. Is this setting me up for problems from the start? Should I try to angle that edge of the disc toward the ground to make it harder to torque the disc upwards and elbow down? Any other ideas on how to correct this? And do you think this is the biggest power constraint I have right now moving forward?

Additionally, is my left arm in "enough", or is this eating a bit of power too?

https://vimeo.com/177485830

My friend who I have been throwing with also was hoping for some advice. He has been working on striding towards the target (instead of turning back early), and staying behind the brace. He has the same elbow/shoulder thing going on as I do, too. Any advice on what to work on most in his form?

https://vimeo.com/177486096

Thanks again SW22 (especially), even though my throws have been feeling consistently more balanced it was good to finally see a small velocity increase. It's funny that I can now feel things being wrong, but the disc is still coming out slightly faster than before.

 

[sidewinder22]

A big part of your issue is your stride direction is still too leftward and long wide plant step - so things are more rounded, instead of moving forward and turning/pivoting back straighter yet wider in a different sequence. I'm in the McBeth/Feldy camp on disc position here, full forward. Even Will is pumping the disc forward with the elbow still, meanwhile you have already begun moving the elbow/disc backward behind your center so your backswing sequence or the start of it is different than everyone else. Everybody gets to the same transition point at the same exact time because it is dictated by gravity(tossing/abandoning the disc away to gravity giving the disc it's own inertia separate from yours) and your posture getting ready to leverage the disc back forward.



It looks like you are trying to keep your head down, as its buried/jammed into your front shoulder. Get your head upright balanced in posture and up out of the way of your swing. You can see how much arm and disc curl you have trying to swing or rather pull through but gets bunched/jammed/curled all up and consequently don't fully release/extend your arm through impact.

Notice Jared's head is up! Not head down! And how nicely flat the shoulder and arm and disc swing straight through unimpeded. Also note how much further forward his front shoulder is, he has dynamically shifted forward balanced upright in posture and pivots freely through a braced front side rather than getting jammed up. Also note his arm is fully extended and as far away from his center of mass/navel creating a lot of space to swing through and counter weight it.

 

[sidewinder22]

My friend who I have been throwing with also was hoping for some advice. He has been working on striding towards the target (instead of turning back early), and staying behind the brace. He has the same elbow/shoulder thing going on as I do, too. Any advice on what to work on most in his form?

Same advice throughout this thread for your friend.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok, more video. No forehand, but I went back to the basics and kept my elbow moving with my hip/torso. Feels much safer like before, and I just trust that the levers will give me the same velocity. And they do. I'll just keep working on it like that for a bit and hopefully the speed will slowly ramp up in a safe manner.

Hmm, now that I think about elbow position from the side view relative to the hip or spine, going back to our PM convo about why I appear to have such a wide elbow from the hip due to more foot eversion compared to other top FH throwers from the rear view makes a lot of sense now. And why many of them say to keep the elbow to hip, and why I completely disagree with that advice looking from the rear view, but can agree with them somewhat or better understand the myth or misinterpretation looking from the side view perspective.

 

[slowplastic]

Thank you so much. I could see the chin into shoulder thing from the start, even at reachback, but I had no idea how to fix it. I "tried improving" my run up direction, but now I can see from your screen grabs how I still have my hips closed by probably 20 degrees as I am hopping towards the target. All the pro's have their hips essentially parallel to their target and their left foot goes in behind simply because it can't occupy the same space as their right foot...not because their whole body is already pre-turned back.

I could also see in video how my head turns with my swing, rather than waiting for the rear shoulder to move it forward. It's so frustrating to see lots of these issues but not know what stage of the throw is essential for correcting it.

I just tried the parallel to target alignment with the X-step in the living room. When I swing through my hips shift forwards and end up under my torso, somewhat like Ken Jarvis or how I feel in a baseball swing. This is definitely a better sign.

Thanks for the screenshots. The hip alignment during my stride is massive, and I can more clearly see that now (the screenshots have made it apparent more than being told 6 times, and me watching the videos over and over). That direction sets me up for problems from the start of all sorts. I will work on correcting that and then see how everything settles in, and give my friend the same advice.

 

[slowplastic]

Hmm, now that I think about elbow position from the side view relative to the hip or spine, going back to our PM convo about why I appear to have such a wide elbow from the hip due to more foot eversion compared to other top FH throwers from the rear view makes a lot of sense now. And why many of them say to keep the elbow to hip, and why I completely disagree with that advice looking from the rear view, but can agree with them somewhat or better understand the myth or misinterpretation looking from the side view perspective.

Before I was taking the keep the elbow in advice very seriously, and on both of those axes. Recently I found arm angle relates to its connection to the torso. I have no bio/kinesiology background so I will just use the simplest explanation I possibly can. Of course tell me if anything is incorrect or dangerous.

If I stand in a doorframe at a 45 degree angle, and reach out with my right hand to grab the frame (upper arm dangling straight down, below shoulder, lower arm out 90 degrees at elbow), and rotate my right hip forward (counterclockwise, from above), my elbow gets left behind. There is no connection feeling between my upper arm and my torso/hips. If I instead move my elbow away from my body by 4-8" (so maybe 30 degree angle from torso to shoulder to elbow, guesses...) and turn my torso forwards, there is strain in my upper arm. I feel a connection to my torso.

So I started reaching out a bit wider, and it let my arm come through with my torso. In your case, you are saying your lower body motion causes the larger distance from hip to elbow, from the rear view.

Of course I started getting my elbow in front of my hips, from the side view, trying to just throw way too hard. I'm settling in on a powerful feeling leverage action and I'll work with that for a bit. A 375-400' forehand would be nice, but avoiding injury is more important. A 350' forehand already gives me a lot more birdie opportunities and safety shots.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok, another day and another video. It's been fast paced but I want to be on the right track as I keep adjusting the next steps. I feel like my lower body has improved a lot, but upper body has not changed. I focused on striding in line with the target, and then turning into the rear hip (internal rotation) at load. I have never felt consistently as balanced in the follow through, on every throw, as I did today. This throw was ~430' with a World, and it felt great.

I am still not pumping the disc forward enough, and leaving it too far behind/too early in the reach back. As well, I cannot fix the shoulder thing. But, I just noticed in this comparison (this is a better angle) to the lead card 4x4 video, my shoulder is already scrunched up as I'm halfway into the reachback. I think I just subconsciously tell myself to reach way back there and I move my shoulder up and back to get the disc further, which pushes it up into my face. The pro's shoulders all just rotate underneath their head. Is this all that has been happening...I've been shrugging my shoulder this whole time during reachback and then can never get back to the correct position? Should my shoulders feel very loose during the swing?

https://vimeo.com/177660002

 

[sidewinder22]

Somewhat better and correct assumptions. Going into the backswing I'm loose as a goose everything is pivoting/gliding into the transition back forward into the Door Frame drill. Loose is fast and on the verge of out of control. It's only in the transition forward that things feel tighter like loaded springs or pulling the string of bow/arrow back, loading the rear leg posture to resist the disc pulling away from the target and you.

Watch how your front foot/leg strides past your rear foot to the plant compared to everyone else in the EO vid. Hershyzer drill.

Also watch how your rear foot is still weighted as your front heel plants, so you aren't shifting balance/weight forward fully, or it's too late or your plant step is too far depending on how you look at things. You are a bit flat footed on your plant foot as your balance is not fully setup on it. Crush the Can part 2 raised rear foot drill and One Leg drill.

 

[slowplastic]

Excellent! I wasn't feeling that drop into spring-load effect through my torso. Some days I feel it, some days I don't. Sometimes I find it by trying to delay my reach back until my hips fire. But, this really cleared it up. I'm reaching out with my right leg until I tip into it, instead of keeping the thigh more under my hip and dropping forward into the crush/Hershyzer like I should. Instead of trying to correct this during a session by trying to get more hip/shoulder separation at the reachback, I should focus on my hip drop into the plant.

The shoulder turn thing also feels very different, but also scary loose. I'm worried I'm going to be spraying discs all over when I start trying this out. But it should definitely help with the loose power and longer levers.

Thanks again, it's good to piece together what causes some of my problems that I can feel...it's always a step or two before the problem that it leads to. It's exciting too to hit that distance with an incomplete weight shift, it means I have more in me.

 

[slowplastic]

I managed to finally address the shoulder thing compared to before. Other things are mostly similar, except the pump/reachback is worse. I can't focus on too much at a time.

So I tried to rotate my shoulders around my spine, rather than reaching back with my right arm while pointing my left shoulder at the target. My shoulder doesn't bunch up this way, and I felt no arm use at all in my throw (compared to before). Normally I would swing my shoulder, and feel some muscles in my upper back by my right shoulder blade...again I have no bio knowledge...but today it just felt like it was legs and core. Obviously there are issues that I will mention below.

https://vimeo.com/178554285

Obviously the disc pump/reachback is still terrible and even worse. It screws up everything next. Especially weight shift is still late, my rear toes are still on the ground as I go heel-down. But is the stride length better? I tried to show the Hershyzer type plant (left) compared to the older long stride (right).

Then because I am letting my body rotate to pull my arm, I am not pulling the disc forward with my elbow, so it is not bunching up the same (left vs. right). The disc is still a little high but I think that is because I reach back a little high? My shoulder is not bunched up like in the right image, although my head is not in the right place.

Finally in the right pec position, the disc is actually on plane and my elbow is much farther forward. My head is not dynamically balanced on my body angle, so it looks close to my right shoulder, but my right shoulder isn't bunched up like in the right-hand side image.

I realize my pump/reachback are badly timed, and now that I am actually using my core more correctly to power my arm (I hope!) the improper weight shift is just nulling my core load to my arm, since I'm not just blasting with my shoulder.

But, is the shoulder/right pec looking better? Is it just my head tilt that is making things look bunched up now?

For reference I had the same ejection speeds as before, but just felt like completely different muscle groups being used, at low effort. Was throwing putters ~300'.

 

[slowplastic]

Also at the hit point, my right shoulder looks to be on a better line with my left shoulder/spine. My head is just drifting forward since it wasn't balanced behind the brace/on axis.

 

[sidewinder22]

Overall looks a lot better - right path. On the reachback/backswing you can go two different routes, 1. Fully pump/swing forward to the hit like Feldy and I do with a straightish elbow and then swing back into the backswing, or 2. Keep the same amount of forward pump, but keep your elbow bent with disc in place and move you body forward to unfold the elbow at the plant, then the elbow unfolds lastly into the plant. Your elbow starts bending instead of unfolding before your plant.

As for the plant/stance/head, you are still striding/drifting to the left side of the tee which is going to make it hard to shift your lower spine forward braced so your head has something more solid to dynamically stack/shift onto. You want to stride forward with your butt more stacked over your rear heel. Your butt is too far over your rear toes to be stacked upright. (Turbo Encabulator and Butt Wipe)

 

[slowplastic]

Excellent, thank you. Right direction is good to hear about the shoulders/swing.

Good advice and description on how I am balanced over my rear foot, it definitely feels over my toes and also likely is a cause for my stride direction. I will examine this along with the swing timing. With this change of muscle groups being used, I can see how the sequence and hip/shoulder separation will be crucial for getting my arm speed increased.

In my baseball swing my head stays put over my spine, so it's really apparent in my BH drives how it is drifting rather than staying put until my shoulder lifts it. Good to know to look at the balance/stride as a starting point.