~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

Yep on all the above from both of you. That first step we can see is also massive and I think that throws off your balance and rhythm. You aren't quite stacked/balanced inside your posture and shifting or bracing properly. Your head/body is collapsing after you plant. You want to plant more into your front toes then heel/weight forward - crush the can/best downswing weightshift and then extend the front knee to clear and keep you upright on your leg/knee/hip.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah, that makes sense from both of you. That first step is very big, and my last step is too far I think to get to a position where I can straighten the leg and clear the front hip back (although at least now I am able to turn my front hip back more while planting). I can feel how my leg should straighten and I'm stacked up on the leg when I walk through the motion, but it seems when I go to throw I try to take too much into it. I'll try to think of the Ken Jarvis perfect form/posture instead of massive steps next time I'm throwing.

 

[deyo7]

Also, should my plant knee be extending for the "shift from behind"/buttwipe drill? Is it dangerous what I'm doing right now? My right knee feels a bit tired but I'm not sure if it's from snowboarding or this.

I don't have much I can help with (you've seen where I'm at ) but this thread is awesome! I'd say you need to get that plant leg extended at some point. Seabas said this in my thread and it helped out a ton;



Check out the freeze frame at 12s of your video. http://imgur.com/a/uyC7D
I'm not the expert, so take it all with a grain of salt

I don't think the pictures help you here, but I thought I'd leave them for reference.

I don't know if this will work for you, but what I'm concentrating on is driving everything on the left side down (like where I was referencing Paige Pierce's 'karate chop') while trying to hold (or catch) the weight against the inside of my plant foot. It's not like your going to plant with your leg straight and actually pole vault. You plant with closed posture with your knee more under you, but instead of just catching all that weight from behind you against the knee (what it looks like your doing), you do it with the inside of your foot. The only way you can do that is by extending the leg, and the hips will clear naturally. http://imgur.com/a/zCtSD

From my understanding, that pop of the leg straightening is what transfers all your weight from behind you up from the ground to the disc. I'm guessing with the knee bent your only transferring from knee up leaving behind a bunch of energy. But I'm a newb, so this could all be wrong.

Yep on all the above from both of you. That first step we can see is also massive and I think that throws off your balance and rhythm. You aren't quite stacked/balanced inside your posture and shifting or bracing properly. Your head/body is collapsing after you plant. You want to plant more into your front toes then heel/weight forward - crush the can/best downswing weightshift and then extend the front knee to clear and keep you upright on your leg/knee/hip.

Boom. This thread and all of the above was extremely helpful. I injured my knee 2 yrs ago playing soccer. When throwing backhand my knee would frequently hurt. I just figured it was result of being weaker since injury, which is really also true, but from reading the above, I realized I was twisting my knee and losing a lot of energy by not getting proper extension as Billyjacko mentioned. The above videos demonstrate well, thanks for posting. However, in order, to get to that position, I realized that I needed to watch Sidewinder's Turbo Encabulator video - I wasn't leading with my butt. Played today and results were evident. Aided by a downhill slope, I had my longest BH throw ever. But flat ground distances also better. Definite breakthrough. So thank you Slow, Sidewinder, and BillyJacko.

 

[slowplastic]

I've been messing around with little things at a time with my backhand...slowly getting better balance and trying to delay my reachback while getting on my brace better, but it isn't all coming together with my arms yet (left arm still not in, I still have to keep my upper right arm out wide). But occasionally I get good shots where I feel the disc "fling" rather than rip, if that makes sense.

But I've been throwing a ton of forehand. I wanted to post video to make sure that I'm doing this safely. I haven't had any discomfort and I've been throwing a lot of forehands on the course, I'm ~375' now with hyzer flips. I have a slightly tilted forward upper body as you can see, so it makes it tricky for me to know if my arm angle relative to my spine is ok...making sure that I'm correctly chaining my arm swing rather than leading with my elbow in a bad way. My upper arm looks to be in line with my shoulder but I honestly don't know what I'm looking for exactly...

https://vimeo.com/215751552#t=6s

I didn't edit/slow the video so here are screen grabs of the frames showing my arm angles.

 

[sidewinder22]

It doesn't appear very violent to me, probably because your hit is well past your front foot. We end up in about the same finish position with the shoulders, so I've probably got 45-60 degrees more shoulder rotation in my follow through which probably relates to easing stress which is more needed with more power. I don't think I'd worry about it, unless you start feeling pain.

 

[slowplastic]

Thank you. I was trying to translate it to an overhand baseball throw and it seems like the same way my elbow and arm should move relative to the shoulders.

Should I be going into the plant with more closed shoulders and swinging the disc over my front foot like you are? I notice that lots of pro's seem to swing their arm sooner...or rather don't open their shoulders as much before swinging the arm, compared to what I am doing. I am very happy with my forehand distance compared to before, but more is always better if I can do it without straining myself.

How far are you throwing a -1/2ish stability type distance driver of your choice on a forehand? Like with a flat or hyzer release and full flight? How far are top pro's like Ricky/Nate throwing those shots? Are they throwing them 425' or 450' in a controlled manner?

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, your arm is coming over the top. I'm throwing a Firebird on anhyzer in that still. Your body is setup to release your arm/disc/hammer to the left about 30 degrees but release early. Big Jerm and Wysocki are fairly shoulder squared to the target like I am. Long toss underhanded.



Eagle probably max around 550' controlled 500', his FH reminds me of Randy Johnson, lanky power. Wysocki is also ridiculously long 525'+ controlled 475'. Jerm and Sexton probably max 500', controlled close to 450'.

Bliz Boss 155g - hyzer 420'


1. Star Xcal 175g - flat-ish distance shot 520' maybe 10' downhill,
2. ESP Venom 174g - hyzer uphill
3. S PD 168g - sweeping hyzer
4. Star Firebird 168g - hyzer downhill
5. Star Roadrunner 175g - hyzer flip turnover

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks again, that definitely helps me visualize some things. Those distances are huge, like 25-50' more than I expected, but that does make sense since Ricky can throw a Felon flat to fade ~400' pretty easily it seems.

I guess best course of action is to throw 60-70% shots trying to keep the shoulders stacked more upright and better arm connection, rather than trying to juice it by getting the disc way out front (which made me feel like I could get a super extended snap on the disc)? I was also surprised that I was getting the disc up high like that, that video was a flat shot with an XCal but it's up high like I'd be throwing an anhyzer if I had to guess from a picture.

Am I losing wrist extension through the disc because I'm releasing the disc early relative to my shoulders, like 30 degrees as you are saying?

Any idea how hard you're throwing a disc, like 70MPH forehand? I know you've said you can throw a ball real hard too...any clue how hard you can throw? This is just out of interest, I don't have access to radar anymore...

 

[sidewinder22]

I equate my distance FH to throwing the long toss drill in baseball, but more underhanded or sidearm. It's fairly relaxed and effortless but a longer swing inside posture generating more speed. Yeah, I'd say my FH is probably max around 70mph similar to BH. Last time I was clocked with a baseball was in middle school and was 72mph sidearm/submarine.

I would say your arm is more like a loose spring that slops around, while mine is a tighter spring that is better connected. The target line would be parallel with the door or wall perpendicular to the spring, but inline with the sideways springing action. Your spring would slap the wall after release, mine would oscillate much tighter perpendicular to the wall/target, but the body/shoulders would follow it through around while it's oscillating.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks, the connection thing makes sense. I just swung a hammer around and could feel how the way I have been throwing there's an arm "lag" that feels like it's an X-factor but it really isn't, it's a disconnection. Keeping a tighter/closer swing has a smaller arc but I guess more connected and powerful. I'm going to have to commit to working on it that way and building the throw back from there. I can feel with the hammer how the Jenkins/McBeth circle backswing keeps things tight, but I'd rather not go that route if I don't have to.

I took a back angle shot of my backhand...it's not the best but unfortunately no others from today. I wanted to see if my front hip was clearing back and leg extending...see if I am actually bracing better rather than just catching and absorbing my weight. It's feeling more balanced...anything you can tell from this angle?

I've been trying to get a closed plant with focus on Hershyzer type stride, and staying more centered over my feet rather than past my toes. My upper body obviously isn't how I want it yet...haven't been able to concentrate on the left arm with the footwork in my head. I can't tell if how my left arm coming through affects my shoulder/torso angle at the end, or if I'm still not posted up fully on the brace leg.

https://vimeo.com/216089635

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

This angle is really hard for me to tell what's going on, but your brace looks much better. There seems to be something holding up your follow through, as it looks a bit truncated. If you can get some footage from a different direction, behind and side I think I can give you a better review.

Something that is helped me improve my loading on the front side has been visualizing and trying to brace so that my rear leg mashes into my front leg with my rear knee fully internally rotated. Add to that the idea that I'm trying to smash down into the brace followed by slightly straightening the plant leg (not to a lockout), and I've been getting some of the best power Hyzers I've ever had.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah there's something off in your balance and/or sequence - like you are trying to force it before really getting onto your front hip. Your follow through is not smashing all the way through - your left shoulder and arm should get whipping forward over your front foot pulling you into the follow through and pinning you forward against the brace. If you watch Avery below you can see he gets his front hip cleared fully and the rear shoulder/arm come all the way through with rear shoulder pointed at target. You should be finishing more upright proud chest to target, you are collapsing your chest toward the ground in the finish.



See last two min - centered shoulder rotation:


See where I talk about chest finishing upward:

 

[sidewinder22]

Something that is helped me improve my loading on the front side has been visualizing and trying to brace so that my rear leg mashes into my front leg with my rear knee fully internally rotated.

Femur internally rotated and foot everted. Knees don't rotate.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Femur internally rotated and foot everted. Knees don't rotate.

Hah, yeah that too!

 

[slowplastic]

That ending of the gas pedal video helped me out...at least in the living room. Occasionally I follow through with my whole left side, leg included, but often times I just stand up on the plant foot. I had no idea why it would work sometimes and not others...as you guys know follow through is just a result of what happened before it. I think I still have too much weight over my toes, which jams things up. When I have the weight more mid foot or towards the heel (I guess just centered...probably feels like heel to me comparatively) it opens up the room for everything to just swing through.

 

[slowplastic]

That balance over feet (not past toes) helped me consistently follow through on my shots. I am still striding too far to start with (and likely too far with my plant but I still have internal hip rotation at plant it seems), and I'm letting the disc still get above my elbow...but the brace is seeming better.

Is my left shoulder still collapsing forward a bit after release/follow through or is this ok?

https://vimeo.com/216602830

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah better shoulder on follow through, still too weak to really whip your rear arm forward through though, related to your balance and posture and sequence. You might be internally rotated with the hip, but your body is not staying dynamically upright on it and you appear too twisted into fake X factor before the transition forward from the backswing by trying to shift the front, instead of from behind you which will keep you looser and allow you to fully extend further into the backswing with proper sequence so your weight shifts before your disc starts going forward.

In the Door Frame drill your body/arm should be loose and still turning back as your butt/weight pulls forward into the plant, everything should feel very smooth and pivoty before your plant foot can crush the can with your weight(You shouldn't be able to fully plant into the front heel in this drill, unless you release from the door frame). Just hang on your door frame for like an hour. Move your rear foot around and feel how the leverage changes and you adjust your body to it with your butt leading. Your front foot should be either slightly airborne or lightly on the ground.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948

 

[slowplastic]

Well, after watching those videos multiple times over a long period of time, this time I finally see things a bit differently. I feel different muscles being used in my left leg in the door frame drill and I can feel that "from behind" shift differently. It's like powering the counterbalance/shift instead of just pushing forward.

How this will translate into a throw will be...interesting. But I have 10MPH to gain so I guess it's a good thing that I have something this fundamentally wrong. I really hope this isn't going to screw up my tunnel shots for a long time...

 

[sidewinder22]

Right, you should feel the core muscles in your rear leg load and rear internal hip rotation(as your body turns back into it being pulled by the door frame as your butt moves forward). Initially it may not increase distance/speed, but should feel effortless efficiency.

 

[slowplastic]

As usual you're absolutely right. I got some throws in today, just trying to do this new step/shift in balance without killing the disc. I don't think I really threw past 75% for the most part but I was throwing my good expected ranges relative to my old form. Lots of parked 325' midrange shots dead straight at low effort. I couldn't do anything with my arms while thinking about this new shift, but I was definitely reaching back later/longer in the transition.

Here are a couple of hyzer flip shots with a midrange, the behind view shows that I was unbalanced and had to step to the left in the follow through. My left arm is bad and the disc is above my elbow still but like I said I couldn't focus on that stuff yet. I really hope this is the right direction...

https://vimeo.com/216743339

https://vimeo.com/216743398

And here's a screen grab at the transition...looks like I'm not moving my arm ahead of the shift finally and my knees are more underneath me with internally rotated hips. I hope this is going correctly.