~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[deyo7]

One way to adjust the tendency to pull the disc forward, raising the leading shoulder and tensing the muscles - is to take your off arm hand (your left hand) and grab your right arm inside the elbow, as if you were crossing your arms.

Keep your off arm adjusted so that your throwing arm is locked at 90 degrees from your shoulders.

Now you have a feeling for the arm angle in the back swing, and how it should stay shaped as the disc comes forward and through the release. Most players will at some point or another have issues with that 90 degree angle between their humerus and their clavicle collapsing to some degree.

When I think of people asking, "what muscles do I engage" with the upper body, it's hard to explain that your firming up the frame of the 90 degree angle while still keeping the forearm loose and free - so we will often describe that as keeping the disc out wide in the backswing.

The result of the wide backswing is that we are getting our 90 degree angle set. If you collapse the 90 degree angle to "pull" the disc forward - that front side shoulder will raise or tighten.

This thread is so freakin awesome. I've learned so much just reading this past week. HUB, by what I bolded above - So during wide reachback then the positioning of elbow is then set and will not change, while the forearm will be loose and going from out to in to out - correct? (And I understand result of all of this is setting of 90 degree angle, I'm just clarifying body parts positioning)

And is attempting to collapse 90 degree angle during pull bad (I don't think I could get much tighter angle anyway)? Slow hope you don't mind me clarifying on your thread.

 

[rhatton1]

This video from /u/searchingforsilky (Reddit) has a simple little drill for the feeling.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks guys. That video is good to go hand in hand with the drill HUB just explained...that left hand on the right elbow gets me into a position I haven't felt before. And I like that it keeps the forearm loose to fling out so it feels more like a throwing motion.

Once I felt that with the left hand locking my right elbow, doing the throwing motion indoors/towel feels lazy and my left arm seems to just do the swim move on its own. It'd be great if this just fixes things for me, it definitely feels more like it looks when the pro's throw. I'm a little concerned that this one will make my throws wild for quite some time but we'll see. It definitely reminds me of the "taut arm" feel that SW22 talks about.

 

[slowplastic]

I got some throws in this afternoon, it's definitely an improvement. A few times it all clicked and I got some of the most effortless long shots I've had. But this is right on the edge of what I can concentrate on...it's going to need a few sessions to get it to feel natural. My elbow is coming forward better than before but the disc angle relative to my forearm still goes out of wack when I'm in the elbow-forward position...as well my left shoulder keeps doing the forward thing on the follow through.

I'll just have to do this for a while to zone it out and try to incorporate the swim move with the left arm, or try to get it forward or something. That arm has been a problem since day 1.

But, I definitely didn't lose distance or accuracy, and if anything steeper hyzer and anhyzer angles are easier than they ever have been. I've always hated anhyzers (why I developed my forehand) but I can see how the proper technique will make it easier for me to throw.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Nice!

 

[slowplastic]

Do you have any updated ideas on the swim move or left arm stuff? I feel like I'm tensing my left arm too much and it's tossing my shoulder forward in the follow through. If not, I may just have to wait to get this form zoned out enough that I can just make my left arm essentially limp so it does the down/backwards flail thing on its own. I really don't know...

I'm throwing way more consistently and it feels easier than I have before, but I'm still not throwing farther. I know accuracy and all...but I want 450'+!

 

[deyo7]

Slow, what about thinking about trying to do left arm swim move in conjunction with smashing left knee into right ankle (gas pedal move). If doing simultaneously might be less to think about easier to add in to your throw...

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I kind of do try to think of it that way but it doesn't work. I'm too tense with the arm out. I think I need to try to keep the arm down to the side of my hip instead of moving it forward with my leg the way I've been trying (not that it's conceptually wrong...it just hasn't clicked for me). I'd been trying to get my left arm in/forward like McBeth does but I'm not getting that recoil thing happening. Maybe I'll go for the to the side aligned with the torso and left leg like Simon and Eagle do. They don't get the arm shifted ahead of them, it's simply out of the way...but they are 2 of the longest throwers in the world so it has to be right. Either way I can only think of ~2 things at a time during my throw and I'm already capped out with making sure I'm getting a clean shift from behind in addition to not scrunching my shoulder up. At some point I'll have to add keep the disc on plane and get the left arm in/down.

 

[deyo7]

Yeah I kind of do try to think of it that way but it doesn't work. I'm too tense with the arm out. I think I need to try to keep the arm down to the side of my hip instead of moving it forward with my leg the way I've been trying (not that it's conceptually wrong...it just hasn't clicked for me). I'd been trying to get my left arm in/forward like McBeth does but I'm not getting that recoil thing happening. Maybe I'll go for the to the side aligned with the torso and left leg like Simon and Eagle do. They don't get the arm shifted ahead of them, it's simply out of the way...but they are 2 of the longest throwers in the world so it has to be right. Either way I can only think of ~2 things at a time during my throw and I'm already capped out with making sure I'm getting a clean shift from behind in addition to not scrunching my shoulder up. At some point I'll have to add keep the disc on plane and get the left arm in/down.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Slam your arm down in & in conjunction with slamming your left leg into your right ankle. In my mind arm shouldn't be "out". Be Lizotte. Be Eagle. You can do it. May take time like you said but it's just a matter of getting it ingrained.

 

[sidewinder22]

SP - you let your upper arm angle collapse too much during the swing in the last vid, and see below about rear elbow helping hips forward, I'd also recommend watching the last 1/3 of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=9m42s

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks, I've obviously watched that in the past many times but now with the new lens of knowing the shift from behind things that looked similar now have new meaning. I can do what you are doing in the video, so I'll try to translate that to throws. It does feel different than the in/forward I was doing. Also thanks for confirmation about the upper arm angle thing. Slowly I'll get this upper body thing sorted out.

What is your opinion on wrist/disc angle from reachback toward power pocket? Should it be on line/wrist down as much as possible (think McBeth where disc is perfectly flat/in line the entire time)? I tend to let my wrist get too neutral so the nose gets up until I unload my arm and snap it back down again (I will try to fix this, I can't think of any pro's who do this). Some pro's do the disc turn downwards, like Jussi is an extreme example of this. Does it matter or is it just for better consistency in the long run?

 

[sidewinder22]

It might not be a wrist issue, but a disc grip issue in the hand. Bratten's 2 finger grip experimentation should help. McBeth has great alignment which breeds power and consistency, also see Brinster. The Jussi/ZJ anhyzer tilt is more of a distance trick to help keep the nose down and swing through closer to chest, you will see these guys throw far, but less consistent.

 

[slowplastic]

Makes sense. I should probably bite the bullet and try that grip out if I'm serious about throwing farther.

 

[slowplastic]

I am doing some things less bad, and have been rewarded with some distance! Not perfect at all and some issues remaining, which is good I suppose, and I was getting fairways (Teebirds, River) out to 350-360' on pure sweep hyzers and also bombed a Vulcan ~440' in a mild-moderate R to L headwind (the worst direction). The shots don't even feel that different...the discs just get up high and keep on going...normally I'd throw a fairway straight to fade in that range, I definitely wouldn't get there without the disc popping up to flat, but today they carried on hyzers.

I played a practice round with lots of shots, and on the last hole I felt the swim move finally. It's ugly, but it gave me more distance. Video below is on a Firebird hyzer like 70%. So the shift from behind is feeling good and I think I am getting better (but not perfect) with keeping my upper arm "taut" and out wider than before...but I'm still getting the plane issues while swinging. I tried the 2 finger grip and modifications to it a day or two ago but I bruised my palm pulling sharp rimmed drivers into my hand with it so I was using my old/normal power grip today. I'll go back to this experiment again soon.

For the swim move I just tried letting my left arm go limp after bringing it in. It kind of just sits behind my torso and recoils, kind of like how I imagine KJ Nybo throws...but way more messed up than his throws. My arm looks all jacked up when it recoils and I feel like my left shoulder gets paused/left behind. It doesn't feel bad at all it just doesn't look smooth like the pro's. Am I rotating my arm all funny with pronation or something? I only got in about a dozen throws with this motion, and they all went farther than normal...so perhaps I just need several sessions to let it smooth itself into a better angle with my torso...or am I doing something clearly wrong with my arm?

https://vimeo.com/218733188

 

[slowplastic]

Actually looking at more pro slow-mo what I felt today probably mimics Avery's left arm the most. He lets it go pretty limp and it recoils with his shoulder kind of behind his torso.

 

[sidewinder22]

You are swinging with alligator arms. Your stride/stance is still too wide or not dynamically balanced upright stacked enough on the front leg jamming/bunching things up instead of pivoting freely and extending your swing - One Leg Drill/the Move part 2. Note how narrow Avery's stance is.

Avery's left arm is not limp, there is a lot of tension whipping back countering the right arm whipping forward. Swimming/pushing back to release forward. When I go through the throw in the pool, I do the exact same move that Avery and GG and PP do, but for whatever reason on land I do the same thing McBeth does but it all still feels the same, and my left arm ends up getting whipped forward like KJ in the finish.

 

[slowplastic]

That's interesting how you describe the swim move feeling, that the tension to counter is normal. Previously I'd been trying to copy the McBeth style of getting it forward and it really wasn't working, I just drifted/leaked forward...good to know it just works out that way for you when you do it right. I'll focus on how it feels rather than copying a specific pro for a while.

I noticed my stride was getting really long again. That's a good reminder it jams me up, and the move video makes more and more sense.

I've got a lot of separate things to work on, getting my shoulder and swing plane stuff sorted out will be very important.

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't see them as separate things, the swing plane issue is related to your posture/balance.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I don't doubt my swing plane issues are related to my posture and most importantly (I'd assume) my right shoulder not being out wide enough. Shoulder at 90 and posture through shift will be my main focuses, while hopefully zoning out my left arm and getting that to continue to improve at the swim move. I can definitely see how I wasn't getting on top of my brace...I was kind of aware of it at the time too but unable to focus on so many things. Eventually.

I have a question about shoulder plane when at the right pec/elbow forward position. I didn't screenshot this video because it's pretty obvious just watching it if you pause for each thrower at that position of their throw. If you draw a line through their shoulders (along clavicles), Ricky's front shoulder is slightly angled down, while Kajiyama and Eagle are level...and McBeth is actually angled upwards (he may be throwing a higher trajectory though).

I've noticed some players load in with their front shoulder slightly lower, is there any benefit or reason to this, or does it just depend on torso angle (hyzer vs. flat vs. anny)? I can't really tell what angle I'd be at because my right shoulder gets too left behind/scrunched into the socket still.

 

[sidewinder22]

I believe this is a left to right hole so they are all throwing anhyzer type throws. Wysocki is probably throwing something flippy and turning it over from hyzer. McBeth is throwing with more anhyzer with something more over-stable. Eagle and Manabu are more in-between.