~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

Perfect, thanks.

Makes sense then when Simon throws into a net for velocity he is at a hyzer angle for power and that is why his lead shoulder is slightly down.

 

[charmees]

I believe this is a left to right hole so they are all throwing anhyzer type throws. Wysocki is probably throwing something flippy and turning it over from hyzer. McBeth is throwing with more anhyzer with something more over-stable. Eagle and Manabu are more in-between.

Could be this, but I think it can be unique for each player. For example I have noticed that mcbeth raises his right shoulder on most of his throws and he is throwing hyzers.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, part of it is form style but it's all relative, McBeth is more upright with high elbow/arm swing, on the opposite spectrum is Feldy.

 

[slowplastic]

I shortened my stride and it helped me feel way more balanced again. I would get on top of the brace, and along with the swim move, my torso kind of "stays put" when releasing the disc...no more sudden tip at impact, and it looks like it's aligned with the rear thigh as many pro's are. I got a swing on video where my shoulder wasn't as bad but my stride went out of whack on that one. Gives me hope I'll piece it together though.

I have a question about hip clearing and rear leg countering. I watched the Hershyzer counterweight stuff and I understand the concepts (I think I do...). I was getting on top of the brace at release, standing up and in balance with my left leg swinging around...but my front knee was still bent over top of my plant foot, like Kajiyama in the previous video I posted. Is this OK, compared to front leg extension such as what Rick/Eagle do to clear the hip back? Or are they getting more power by extending the leg/hip back? Also I need to film myself from behind to see if my rear leg is countering to the right...I understand if I stride too long then it will drag forward then left. But, if I am shifting from behind and in a short enough stride, should it "automatically" counter to the right side, or do I need to push off the instep or cue it a certain way? Basically I understand the hip clear and rear counter will go hand in hand, but I'm just wondering if they "happen" when you shift correctly or if they need to be primed somehow.

Also, is it correct to think that top pro's can/have to stride super wide on power shots because their momentum carries/floats them to the brace leg to the same position as usual before the brace actually catches the weight? For example, if they had that same width at 50% power then their momentum wouldn't bring them on top of their brace and they'd jam up?

 

[RandyC]

Looks a lot like my form when I was hitting the same distances as you are with BH. I´ve had couple 500ft shots now and can reach 450ish somewhat comfortably. How I got on to my brace was a small tilt in my axis and a thought that "Do not pivot till the disc is out of my hand" guess it has something to do with not releasing the pressure too early. I practiced it with the one leg drill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX8GQAxeALk&feature=youtu.be . Yes I tried bit too hard on that throw but I actually bounce up after the throw and that pressure feels like it goes into the disc. I used to think that I am required to pivot which led to a half-assed brace. Now pivot happens because theres so much pressure coming. Not sure if I am on the right track but it feels effortless.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks a lot like my form when I was hitting the same distances as you are with BH. I´ve had couple 500ft shots now and can reach 450ish somewhat comfortably. How I got on to my brace was a small tilt in my axis and a thought that "Do not pivot till the disc is out of my hand" guess it has something to do with not releasing the pressure too early. I practiced it with the one leg drill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX8GQAxeALk&feature=youtu.be . Yes I tried bit too hard on that throw but I actually bounce up after the throw and that pressure feels like it goes into the disc. I used to think that I am required to pivot which led to a half-assed brace. Now pivot happens because theres so much pressure coming. Not sure if I am on the right track but it feels effortless.

Very nice! :thmbup:

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for that explanation...that looked like a crush on a one foot shot. I think what you're saying goes well with "The Move Pt.2" video that SW22 recommends a lot...how you have to shift into a closed leg that resists and then you can get redirected into a rise. I'm still focusing on a shift from behind and now that it's feeling natural I should probably resist/counter some more. I'm definitely trying to allow for a smooth pivot so I like hearing your perspective on changing your view from that.

I'm sure if you're hitting 450-500' you're on the right track for the most part haha. Good to hear also that what I'm doing reminds you of your form before and now you've added significant distance.

 

[sidewinder22]

I have a question about hip clearing and rear leg countering. I watched the Hershyzer counterweight stuff and I understand the concepts (I think I do...). I was getting on top of the brace at release, standing up and in balance with my left leg swinging around...but my front knee was still bent over top of my plant foot, like Kajiyama in the previous video I posted. Is this OK, compared to front leg extension such as what Rick/Eagle do to clear the hip back? Or are they getting more power by extending the leg/hip back? Also I need to film myself from behind to see if my rear leg is countering to the right...I understand if I stride too long then it will drag forward then left. But, if I am shifting from behind and in a short enough stride, should it "automatically" counter to the right side, or do I need to push off the instep or cue it a certain way? Basically I understand the hip clear and rear counter will go hand in hand, but I'm just wondering if they "happen" when you shift correctly or if they need to be primed somehow.

Also, is it correct to think that top pro's can/have to stride super wide on power shots because their momentum carries/floats them to the brace leg to the same position as usual before the brace actually catches the weight? For example, if they had that same width at 50% power then their momentum wouldn't bring them on top of their brace and they'd jam up?

Manabu's front knee stays braced behind his ankle through impact, that's all that matters.

Regarding how much leg bend/extension vs power, I believe it's just raw power/speed vs control. Straighter leg is more efficient = more rotational speed and tighter axis, while more bent leg requires more strength = but provides more leverage and control. I'm betting that if Will Schusterick straightened his front leg he would be throwing farther like Ken Jarvis or Lizotte, but would probably not be as accurate with his throws.

Rear leg counter - I'm not entirely even sure it's meant to be countering, but it's conveniently what happens because of the torque in the ground created between your two feet/hips. The eversion of the rear foot is what happens when the weight pressure leaves your rear foot and you have torque going through your hips and once the foot leaves the ground it continues in the countering direction. If you exaggerate the rear leg counter it makes sure your torques are at least going in the correct directions and with more practice should help you create more actual foot torque down the road.

Width of stance does depend on stride speed, it's all dynamically the same. It should still feel very narrow or upright even when going fast with what appears to be wide stance when looked back at in video. It also gets very weird talking about width of stance as it depends more on where your knees are vs your feet like in Swivel Chair Drill - When you look at Will S his feet are very far apart, but his knees are still directly under his hips due to the internal rotation of the femurs in the pelvis and also his weight has left the rear foot before he plants.

 

[RandyC]

Thanks for that explanation...that looked like a crush on a one foot shot. I think what you're saying goes well with "The Move Pt.2" video that SW22 recommends a lot...how you have to shift into a closed leg that resists and then you can get redirected into a rise. I'm still focusing on a shift from behind and now that it's feeling natural I should probably resist/counter some more. I'm definitely trying to allow for a smooth pivot so I like hearing your perspective on changing your view from that.

I'm sure if you're hitting 450-500' you're on the right track for the most part haha. Good to hear also that what I'm doing reminds you of your form before and now you've added significant distance.

Now that you mention it. Yep it´s the move.. didnt even realize. I am not actually resisting or countering or actively doing anything new. I think thats the key to achive it, not doing anything. I´ll try to explain it. One leg - push my butt towards the target and then just focus on pulling it over my right thigh, I am not actively trying to turn or anything else after that. It felt like I was purposely trying to throw it behind my back? or grip locking it. My aim was way off but I kept at it and suddenly when I wanted to throw more in line my body kinda fixed itself. Tilted axis and the wider plant what Simon preaches started to make sense, once I incorporated them I was hitting my lines with this "grip lock" .

Moving your plant foot more closed than 90 degrees will probably help you achive this feeling easier.

 

[RandyC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDHTKQXJQs Here are some of my shots from a year ago, heck you could say two months ago. When I still had the notion in my head that you are required to spin or turn. There are a lot of similiarities with your form. I am shifting my weight on to the plant, pulling the disc in, quick spin aaaand losing all the power. Pivot, turn, spin are not part of the throw. There are so much misinformation on the interwebs where they are describing things that happen during the throw that are irrelevant in some sense. Just like the elusive power pocket. Man I spent an eternity trying to get there, now I am in the pocket because there simply is not anywhere else to go.

 

[RandyC]

Aaand to continue about your left arm, once again I think its irrelevant. If you are able to achive a good brace, your shoulders turn and your left arm actually comes to your inner left thigh naturally because it has to. Like if you see my arm is all over the place but once my shoulders turn and because my plant is solid the arm comes in with the shoulders and even the weird swim move happens. So.. to conclude.. Important things are doorframe drill, dingle arm and a good plant. Rest happens just because.

 

[slowplastic]

RandyC, this has all been very helpful. It's great to hear from someone who has recently got through this and who remembers the cues that changed things. I have noticed in the past that my right foot rotates as I am throwing, which is a fraction earlier than the pro's (and now that I re-watched video paying attention...Eagle actually releases the disc before his foot rotates)...and I should have known that if I think something is different from the pro's, it IS different, and it DOES matter. Always.

Going through a 1-foot swing in the living room I can definitely feel the "throwing behind your back" vs. what I normally do, which is let things pivot so it feels more like a normal throw that I do. I can also see how having some tilt/hyzer angle makes things feel like they continue straight. Of course it will have to translate to a throw. But feeling something new is good.

I definitely see a lot of similarities with your old form and my current form, although your right shoulder was still better than mine is now. But the pivot timing is the same as what I am doing. I agree with so much of the advice that is given in "generalities", and it focuses on results of good body positioning rather than what to actually do. The left arm/swim move thing depends on the person though, I was focusing on trying to put the arm where it looked like the pro's do, and it hurt me by leaking my left side forward. Now that I've got to practice with it for a couple of days it just happens if I leave my arm to do its thing. So I agree also that it just works itself out, but I had to focus on it a different way to get that to happen. I'm going to let it do its thing for a while, like you have also suggested, so it finds the path of least annoyance and settles into a place that hopefully supports my throw. I can focus on it more if need be, once I see how it ends up after time.

SW22, the brace feeling narrow no matter speed is really good to know. Will's knees being underneath him while is feet being out wide makes sense. In the classic lead card 4 grid video he has one of the widest foot-stance widths, yet his knees are the closest together of all of the players.

 

[slowplastic]

I just worked on form today, made some progress with my shoulder. I tried doing the one leg throws a few times and focused on keeping my front shoulder forward, and almost "down" feeling compared to before. I think it's the best it's been. I was trying to do this as one leg but I do put weight on my rear foot and rotate my front foot inward before the throw...I didn't realize I did that at the time. What I noticed is that my torso is rotated more open than SW22 during his one leg throws, and my foot seems to rotate open as I am throwing.

https://vimeo.com/219169310

Here is a normal backhand, where I managed to keep my right shoulder pretty good I think...let me know if that is the case. However the stride is a tad wide on this throw and the swim move wasn't good. I'm able to do a few of these things right per throw, but not all of them in the same throw. Again, my foot is opening as I am throwing.

https://vimeo.com/219169367

My arm/swing length definitely felt longer/farther forward than normal. It felt like good extension. I also had many griplocks to the right...but they didn't feel like bad griplocks, they felt like good leverage and were bombed pretty good. This is why I'm trying to understand how to stay closed as RandyC has been explaining, and I have noticed when comparing to SW22's form.

I don't really know if I had more velocity, I was throwing in a ton of tailwind and that tends to knock my discs down early, while occasionally floating slow discs nicely. I was throwing fairways ~350' on very low line drives though so I know I didn't lose any distance but I don't know what it would have done in calm. Some shots felt fast and low effort though, but I know it's obviously not the next jump up yet.

 

[sidewinder22]

One Leg Drill - your front foot must stay firmly planted/weighted in the backswing. Your front heel goes up which means your weight is no longer on the front foot and you spin out on the way back forward. Also when setting up your front foot is open, needs to be at least 90 degrees perpendicular or greater like Randy.

X-step - stride is too long and plant open - looks like you lost that loving feeling of from behind you. Need to crush the can planting toes to heel toward target.

 

[slowplastic]

Cool I'll work on the one leg shots more properly now that I've seen I was doing more of a one-step thing but from a strange alignment. Good to be aware that I wasn't setting up my foot correctly. You're right, his foot is extremely closed. This is a good drill for me to work on for balance, as well I can focus on my shoulder swing more easily from this position.

I knew my stride was going wide as I was really only able to think of my right arm. It's surprising how many different ways I can throw the same distance haha. I feel like I have most of the separate pieces now, just need to sleep on it/throw a bunch/repeat a few times and it will all come together eventually.

 

[RandyC]

Actually I´d like to have some clarification considering one leg drill. As I do struggle with my x-step now and then. How close is the oneleg to true form as in, is that the finish I should go for when doing a run-up?

 

[slowplastic]

To further RandyC's question (and perhaps you can answer this yourself), does it feel like you get posted up on your front leg before swinging in an X-step? Or is the shift leading into the throw kind of seamlessly?

Additionally, do you feel your hips kind of moving back to anchor the arm (so the upper body waits for that counterweight), or is it just a balanced swing that feels flowing, and the lower body counters to maintain balance?

What I'm getting at is I don't feel that same counterweight through my torso to my arm in a BH like I do in a FH. But I recently got to see top level players for the first time in person, and their slowness into the elbow forward position and that locked upper arm angle was very obvious and consistent. It's giving me a tempo to focus on and things to practice while keeping all of this info in mind.

 

[sidewinder22]

It should feel the same. When you add the second foot/rear leg you just have to dynamically change/angle your balance to that forward momentum so it still feels like you are completely vertical/upright in One Leg drill.

Static vs Dynamic Balance:
http://www.ballroomguide.com/resources/blog/2016_08_31_static_dynamic_balance.html

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks, I just swung a towel in socks on laminate flooring both one leg and with a walking X-step, without knocking my teeth out. As "not throwing" of an exercise that is, it's a good step for me.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok here's a video from today, I finally was able to incorporate shift from behind, keeping the shoulder wider than before, and the swim move by the end of the session. I think my elbow drops too low still (not close enough to 90 between elbow and torso angle). I felt like I was going through the X-step SO slowly at the end but the throws were easier. This was a DX Teebird in swirly right to left wind, held a hyzer 400'. I don't know how much the wind helped or hurt but it felt as good as I can throw so far, definitely one of the top throws today.

I step out with my left foot to the side and behind my brace leg on this throw...the very next throw I filmed and I stepped out and around in the follow through. Both throws felt equally good...but was I still on top of the brace during this throw?

Also am I trying to throw hard too soon...should I be getting into that elbow-forward position more slowly? Am I standing too upright, not enough "tilted spiral"? I felt like when I was watching the pro's in person I could see them get to that right pec area in real time, but in this video it just looks like I'm at reach back and then the disc is gone (could also be poor frame rate).

https://vimeo.com/219768754