~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

Off arm looks good there, but looks like there's still a disconnect in the transition between your shoulders/body and arm. Your shoulders start going early which collapses your upper arm angle too much and puts them out of sync. Need to turn shoulders a little further back, planting with shorter and straighter stride/more upright and landing more on your toes will help. The way you are landing on your front foot is flat and balance is too far behind/right side of tee of your front foot. You want to plant more with your front knee over the toes/left side of tee like you would doing a squat.

When your shoulder starts going forward your elbow should be going along as well with a little lag to put a plyometric load/spring back into the muscles as you try to maintain the upper arm angle and everything will work more together in sync. Think of your shoulders and arm as one big lever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYGzTlVetQ#t=7m

 

[slowplastic]

That link is terrifying haha. I would not be standing next to him.

That was a great tip though, with the balance more over my front toes I can keep the angles 90 more naturally with a towel.

Walking through it this way initially I felt like my plant leg angles too much like \ when viewed from behind the tee (directing my weight left), but with a shorter step and more upright leg then I can get on top of it. I'm going to have to keep reminding myself to slow down with the disc.

Watching the pro's the thing I noticed most was how the torso and upper arm seemed to move as one unit, there wasn't a crazy compression/sling or something happening...just a simple turn and unwind yet the discs flew out there real far. The throws in general didn't look as hard or intense as I was expecting, especially with that upper arm angle, yet the discs kept flying.

 

[slowplastic]

So in a from behind view video I shot today, my wrist (which I keep very loose until near the hit point) gets bent inward by the weight of the disc a ton as I'm approaching the elbow forward position. This is one of the reasons why from the side the disc looks so off-plane relative to my forearm (of course my forearm does angle up too with elbow-down issues, and my grip could still be off too).

With swinging a towel keeping the arm/elbow out wide, I feel like my wrist doesn't compress as much and like I'm backhand slapping "at" the target, rather than getting a load/snap type of feel "to" the target if that makes sense. Basically my forearm is now starting to open up/face the target as I feel the wrist load happen (say 20 degrees open or more from on line, rather than forearm completely parallel to my line).

This seems to be what I am seeing in pro video as well (wrist is being loaded as elbow is already going "around", rather than when moving forward). Can you confirm if this is how it feels? I also understand that if you aren't used to doing it wrong like I am, then what you do just feels normal...

 

[sidewinder22]

You should feel the wrist lag and wanting to bend closed when your elbow and lower arm starts to extend and arc out the power zone as you are changing the direction/acceleration of the arm and disc and you want to spring load that tension(snap 2009).

 

[RandyC]

Try to stay on your backleg even if you do that pendelum motion with your arm. To me it looks like you tip your weight forward then backwards when you turn for the reachback. This essentially kills all the momentum generated by your run-up. Imagine doing the door frame drill where you walk past it then suddenly turn and try to grab it. Mcbeth stays on his rear leg until its time to plant and throw even thou he pumps the disc forward https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxKc7sCdad8 this is the reason it looks so fluid. I literally just realized this few minutes ago myself. I belive this is how you "move past the disc". Now just to wait SW22 to confirm this.

 

[sidewinder22]

I agree the balance is wonky and basically reverse pivots. I'm not sure what you are trying to say about staying on the rear foot, as many players go airborne which it makes it easier to turn/pivot your body and remain in balance/stack. SP's x-step behind the front leg is too long and flat footed so he starts turning back early. Before the x-step his balance is leaning back, I'd recommend leaning slightly forward going into the x-step/hop like you are going to dunk a bball or hop forward like Espen, GG, Brinster, or older McBeth form so the feet barely cross, and because it's airborne it covers similar distance and enables you to stay completely balanced dynamically upright and can shift your lower spine forward underneath the upper spine/head and turn/pivot the body further back into the Door Frame and plant later.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for pointing out that X-step length and tip, I can see it in those videos. What feels narrow doesn't look narrow afterwards.

I got about 30 minutes of throwing in today and my arm plane is the best it's been...don't have time to upload right now though, but I think it's actually proper now. It feels so easy, like I'm not using my shoulder at all in comparison and the disc doesn't feel like it pops out of my hand the same way, but it is going faster than before. I was throwing probably 20% less hard than normal but throwing at least as far. Overstable discs were going farther than normal even at reduced power. I had some trouble a significant portion of shots 5-10 degrees right but that will get sorted out.

Also since all I could focus on was the swing/elbow and my balance to achieve it, the swim move and any hard weight shift were left out. But it was feeling very easy, definitely a good sign. The advice for how to stack my balance and turn shoulders even more later allowed me to get the elbow/upper arm angle working.

I'll try to get this ingrained and focus on short strides both during the X-step and into the plant. Hopefully get it zoned out enough to get the swim move again. But I threw a couple fairway drivers 350-370' with as much power as I felt should put them 300'. It's definitely the right direction, just have to get it to be the new normal.

 

[RandyC]

Hmmh how should I explain it. It feels like my lower spine is on my right hip straight from the beginning, even when I do the x-step. It´s a lot easier to do the stride and get on to my brace this way, also the reachback now doesnt feel like a reachback at all. I am looking at the target, then stride past the disc, feel my arm tense up and just let it go at the target. Guess I should film myself because how it feels might not be right. But to me it looks like Mcbeth is doing exactly that.

 

[slowplastic]

I think I know what you're saying, and SW22 is saying by doing the skip style X-step.

Since you guys identified it I can tell I'm leaning back instead of toward/into my momentum during my walk and X-step, then my long steps emphasize that by tipping my body enough to mess things up and kind of get outside my stance.

Going through steps in the living room, keeping my weight forward as SW22 suggested like trying to dunk (good example even though I can't do it) feels good. Best I can explain is my momentum keeps going forward and inside my strides, but kind of over my right hip rather than moving around. But, I'm going to have to actually try this to see how it feels with a "shift from behind" as I try to concentrate on my left side a bit during my throws. I did snap a towel real hard a couple times, as much of nothing that it indicates haha

I'm really happy things are progressing though, throws are feeling easier and I feel like I'm close to getting the real distance level.

 

[sidewinder22]

Hmmh how should I explain it. It feels like my lower spine is on my right hip straight from the beginning, even when I do the x-step. It´s a lot easier to do the stride and get on to my brace this way, also the reachback now doesnt feel like a reachback at all. I am looking at the target, then stride past the disc, feel my arm tense up and just let it go at the target. Guess I should film myself because how it feels might not be right. But to me it looks like Mcbeth is doing exactly that.

Sounds about right, but I think it depends on how much the rear leg bends into the x-step and the direction you are facing.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91096

 

[sidewinder22]

This whole video is gold, but pay close attention from 4-5 min:

 

[slowplastic]

That boy's got a good swing there, tape it up and hit the ol' slappy top shelf. You line up the hips like that and no D-man in the world's gonna wanna stack their shinnies in fronta the puck or they'll be takin a few nights off afterward.

I know this is probably answered within so many drills/etc., but should the spine be aligned on the front hip during the back swing (pre-shift from behind) in order to prevent the reverse pivot to an extent?

 

[sidewinder22]

Depends on how far you turn into the backswing.

 

[slowplastic]

Your videos have so many layers. Each time I figure something new out (...or am helped until something is figured out) then another part of your videos just feels right. The Dingle Arm video now makes so much more sense. Even though I've been shifting from behind into the throw, I'd still been loading in front of myself. The Dingle Arm video and watching Will throw standstills showed me how to shift from behind into the backswing...I'd been pressuring from my insteps until now and loading from the front.

Plus the hammer into the box example feels so much more like what is happening with my better arm/swing position.

Lots of things for me to tie together and get zoned out, but they are piecing together. I feel more like water than before, I get what you've been meaning more.

 

[deyo7]

This whole video is gold, but pay close attention from 4-5 min:

This is gold.

SW22 do you feel like your body is "resisting the turn" as your foot is everting and you are dropping back into door frame position? Like there is a lot of pressure on your left side hip? Then everything just unwinds from there?

SP, This is part of what I was trying to describe in my post on your from behind thread about unloading or completing the move. That winding feeling where when your body uncorks, and to me feels like your left goes into your front side & behind it; really a reorientation of the spine/naval to clear the hip as described in golf vid. At first when I was trying to do the "from behind" thing in BH throws I was trying to turn my foot and hips/butt in backswing and then rotate back around with my instep, in front of my body but that wasn't doing anything for me because I was "spending" all the energy as I came forward. Whereas now, I honestly feel like a spring and I don't have to do much at all to get a lot of torque going forward. I have other things to work out but this really feels like the X factor

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I get the naval thing...to me I feel like I'm moving my pelvis with the rest of my body in balance. This is the same idea and it shifts everything above it in balance.

I have that automatic spring feeling too when I wait long enough to reach back. I have to think of turning back as I'm planting and shifting my left side targetward. It's hard for me to slow down and extend the feelings that much, but once I get it it feels like a spring unloading and I don't really have to throw in comparison to before.

 

[sidewinder22]

This is gold.

SW22 do you feel like your body is "resisting the turn" as your foot is everting and you are dropping back into door frame position? Like there is a lot of pressure on your left side hip? Then everything just unwinds from there?

In the Door Frame Drill I feel like I'm still turning backward into the backswing and loading the rear hip all the way just before I can shift all my weight into the plant and the rear foot leaves the ground everting, but you can't fully plant and rear foot shouldn't leave the ground in Door Frame Drill, unless you release from the door frame. "That shift is only about an inch long" - Best Downswing Weightshift. Everything unwinds after Crushing the Can and in One Leg Drill.

 

[deyo7]

Yeah SP, I honestly wasn't implying that you did not get anything - I was just excited that the video was the same idea-r

In the Door Frame Drill I feel like I'm still turning backward into the backswing and loading the rear hip all the way just before I can shift all my weight into the plant and the rear foot leaves the ground everting, but you can't fully plant and rear foot shouldn't leave the ground in Door Frame Drill, unless you release from the door frame. "That shift is only about an inch long" - Best Downswing Weightshift. Everything unwinds after Crushing the Can and in One Leg Drill.

SW, I communicated badly. I'll attempt to do better. I guess my question is, are you actively trying to resist the turn with your rear foot during the backswing? In other words, do you have your rear foot firmly planted (and even trying to go backwards toward the target if on ice; 6:40ish, SecretsDirt)... so that your rear foot wants to evert but because you are firmly planted you are thereby at least somewhat resisting that eversion & the full turn at least of your leg as you load up? And at this point you can feel the tension build -pretty significantly - in your left side, hip? ..... And then, yes, when front foot plants and then crushes, everything unwinds.
I'm trying to relate to the Secrets in the Dirt video: Reference from 6:40 on. & for example, if I simply allow my rear leg to rotate back in back swing, I feel like I get "slack" (8:00 min). Good Lord, I really hope all that makes sense.

I also can only achieve this spring feeling when I (a) remain dynamically balanced and (b) get a full shoulder turn/good backswing. And the only way for me to do those two things well right now is to basically walk my x step. So, at this point, I'm not sure that my rear foot even leaves the ground...

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah it kind of gets confusing talking about some of this stuff. I do resist the rear foot turning/spinning out, but don't resist the hip turn in the backswing, but do resist the weight from wanting to get out of posture. I pretty much agree with everything Mike Maves and Shawn Clement says, some people think what they say contradict, but I see it all as the same move, just different ways to think about it.

 

[deyo7]

Alright, perfect - thanks. I tell you what, after watching all the Clement and Mike Maves videos, it really makes me want to go hit a golf ball - knowledge is power.