~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

I'm slowly piecing the things together, I haven't got everything in the same throw but at least I can somewhat identify which things worked or didn't work after a throw either by feel or looking at video. Yesterday I could do a nice short upright stride and the swim move, but couldn't get my shoulder out wide, and was still rewarded with a ~375' star Teebird pure hyzer. Today my shoulder is doing better but I lost the swim move.

Here is a close up of the upper body, I adjusted my grip as I finally understand why mine was wrong. Although I had a nose down position, when my wrist bent back the disc would go off plane relative to my forearm somehow...I tried to modify the 2-finger style grip into a power grip and the disc is staying on plane more than before and I am able to throw nose down. I'll keep working on it now that I understand what happened more. But how is the right shoulder/upper arm looking? This was ~80% Firebird hyzer.

https://vimeo.com/220549180

Here is a more normal angle of a throw today, just an average throw. I lost things that I was doing yesterday in it, but it'll come back together. I believe the right foot is a bit far ahead, but I am trying to stride less far in behind with the left foot...better direction I think but not fully in balance forward/inside of my stride. I also lost the swim move. But what I care about is the upper arm as that's what I was focusing on today...right direction or still not there?

https://vimeo.com/220548961

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah your balance is still behind/right of your heel during the throw. Plant on your toes and then crush the can, this will help with spiral tilt of your shoulder lower as well as maintain balance more on rear toes as you are also a little flat footed on the rear foot and slow or hesitate a second.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks, I could see things were a little off (like that slight pause in the throw today) but didn't know how to address it. I can see the balance behind heel now. I've done that half upright/half fall back thing after throws a few times this week so this is good to know.

 

[billyjacko]

I believe the right foot is a bit far ahead, but I am trying to stride less far in behind with the left foot...better direction I think but not fully in balance forward/inside of my stride.

This is something that clicked for me after re-watching the Lizotte/McMahon clinic. You can see them clearly plant with their foot almost underneath them as their crushing out drives. I read in this thread about having 'narrow knees', and combining that idea with falling into the plant/door frame and you really have to have the plant a lot closer to your hip than I have been. I haven't quite figured out how to get it incorporated into the x-step, but I've had a lot of success bombing out my putters and midranges on one steps. I had a couple of my single step Buzzz's fly out further than my fairway drivers with a full run up. When it clicks, I can really feel the lower body leading the throw, and everything feeling a lot more connected.

He starts throwing around 8:30.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah in video I took yesterday I was planting slightly closer/under myself and although it only is a few inches the angle difference is huge. Today my problem was also getting my torso too forward sometimes (while likely being behind my heel...) and that led to some bad shots (the video above was not one of these cases). When I identified that at the end of the session and stood more upright I threw my putter as far as the previous 4 shots with mids/fairways that all ended up in the same spot.

Seeing how slow Simon/Eagle step through that is a great reminder that the timing can get you 450'+ at low effort like they just did. I hope that redistributing my balance to help with my shoulder plane/tilted spiral also helps with my hand still going up a bit at the elbow forward position. I seem to be keeping my upper arm out wide and having my wrist load at the correct time now, but the forearm still raises a bit in the power pocket.

Still though all these pieces are getting identified and it's getting closer to coming together.

 

[slowplastic]

I finally got to throw on a calm day after what feels like a couple weeks of minimum 15MPH winds. It had been impossible to tell any distances because of it. My distances today were pretty consistent with good putters/mids/fairways but I'm not getting huge driver distance. I got a putter ~310' today.

I'm trying to figure out why I can't counter with my back leg correctly. I know my balance is off but I can't quite figure it out. In this video I believe I tilt my upper body a bit too back at reachback rather than turning upright and over my right hip, and that continues to influence my torso angle throughout the rest of the throw (was a Teebird hyzer flip). It's small but I'm thinking it matters...

I think I am reaching with my right foot too much, rather than turning backwards more upright and dropping/falling onto the plant foot. This should make it easier to keep the plant foot closed until it contacts the ground. Is this what is happening?

If I try to pressure my left leg behind me to counter, I feel like it jams me up...so I know something more fundamental must be happening.

This throw is pretty representative of my arm angles in 90% of my shots. I had a few shots with a better forearm angle and they flew nice, but I lost the swim move then. It's still frustrating trying to get all the parts in the same throw but it's moving forward slowly.

https://vimeo.com/221497191

 

[slowplastic]

Am I maybe turning my hips back to the shift from behind orientation early? I can see my right hip/thigh is turned back as my right leg is crossing back in front. Should I be more parallel and turn to the shift from behind slightly later?

Basically once my left foot is down my hip orientation is already turned back, and I just push in that direction, rather than load farther as my right foot is nearing its plant.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your rear foot is not turned back enough and restricting your turn into the backswing and lead with the butt into the Hershyzer. When your knees separate you would already be leading with your foot into the wall and kicking it instead of your butt/weight and staying closed into the plant/crush the can.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks, that toe tap drill was actually really helpful to make me feel like I'm shifting/falling more linearly toward the target...I think my weight has been going a bit much right to left at the end step. I'll have to see how this all works in an X-step.

In the Hershyzer drill, how is your weight on your left foot while balancing during the stride? Are you kind of knee over toes, using your whole foot for balance...and the push off the toes comes at the end (the rotation that would occur if the wall wasn't there/pressure against wall)? Or are you on the toes/instep pressure as much as possible the entire time...which feels more challenging to balance to me? It looks to me like the pro's have different extents of pushing off the instep with the toes being the last thing touching the ground vs. pushing off the toes directly. But their back feet are all significantly more than 90 degrees to the target.

If the wall was not there and you were throwing, would your front foot be moving past your hip (planting about 6-8" further ahead than in the drill) just before the point when the wall catches your body? So would you actually be hitting the wall with your foot and hip at similar times if a wall just appeared in the middle of a throw you were expecting to plant on? Obviously at some point your foot is farther ahead than your hip.

 

[sidewinder22]

You should start in control and balanced on the rear foot with your knee flexed and booty preset to the target, then start to fall slightly and then use plantar flexion(heel ideally should go up - which I actually fail to do in the drill because my ankles are weak) to drive and accelerate your butt into the wall the last couple inches, the front knee and foot lag behind. You should still be able to push with plantar flexion into the wall after hitting it and hold your butt to the wall for several seconds. Don't think about rotation in this drill, it's pure linear force into the wall with your butt. Rotation happens more as a byproduct after bracing the front side which is not part of the drill, and the second part of the drill with the hand on the wall/leg kick is a rotation or anti-rotation.

Hard to say if the wall wasn't there because it would depend on your speed where your foot is. It should feel like your front foot would automatically catch you from behind/laterally as you shift the lower body ahead of the upper body and the foot eventually gets slung ahead of the hip in a neutral dynamic position.

 

[deyo7]

Sorry to be that guy that's only auditing the class but continually asks questions.... so that we're crystal clear:

Plantar flexion / heel lift happens driving left rear butt check (RHBH) toward target ("from behind" position) and really drives our whole rear side forward. Then, after right toe plant and can crush, plantar flexion happens again (or rather continues but with a change in foot orientation/direction due to the rotation) with the gas pedal move, driving us over our front foot and down the line....

 

[sidewinder22]

Sorry to be that guy that's only auditing the class but continually asks questions.... so that we're crystal clear:

Plantar flexion / heel lift happens driving left rear butt check (RHBH) toward target ("from behind" position) and really drives our whole rear side forward.

Correct, there is no fuzz in the first part. Except that you can be flexing your plantar muscle with the heel still on the ground like I do and obviously driving my rear end forward into the wall. I just have weak ankles and don't make it to the ideal flexion with heel up.

Then, after right toe plant and can crush, plantar flexion happens again (or rather continues but with a change in foot orientation/direction due to the rotation) with the gas pedal move, driving us over our front foot and down the line....

There is no secondary plantar flexion or gas pedal move after crushing the can, it only leads into crushing the can. The gas pedal move is the same as the first part of the Hershyzer with the only difference being that there is no weightshift involved in the Swivel Chair so it rotates the chair/pelvis instead of driving your weight forward and extending the rear hip. Remember that your hips(femurs) can rotate without the pelvis rotating - when you squat your femurs/hips rotate internally and externally in the pelvis as you flex and extend the hip.

That momentum generated before the plant crushes the can and carries you upright on the front foot during the front side bracing. The rear foot pivots/everts after the weight has left the rear side and counters the arm swing airborne behind/right of the front leg if your torque was maintained all the way a la the second part of the Hershyzer with the hand on the wall. How much eversion happens during the can crush depends on the stride length/width of stance.

 

[slowplastic]

The drills are making sense and it's feeling good walking through it I think. I'm feeling how my left leg wants to move, and I can see this is going to be the right direction. I tried throwing with this today though and it was horrible, I couldn't think about anything above my feet and waist. I lost like 25' on average on all shots because I just couldn't time anything with my upper body. Super frustrating, but I could tell that I was getting more rise off of my plant leg and hip than before. It's definitely going to take some repetition so that I can concentrate on the disc again.

Sometimes I wonder what amount of guys who can throw over 450' got there by having to go through all of the steps, compared to people who just "got it" and could throw far pretty early on.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sometimes I wonder what amount of guys who can throw over 450' got there by having to go through all of the steps, compared to people who just "got it" and could throw far pretty early on.

I don't think anyone just "got it". Pretty much all the top pros starting playing well before they were 18, and the few others that started in their 20s had excelled in other sports and were able to translate their previously learned skill and athleticism quickly.

 

[deyo7]

Remember that your hips(femurs) can rotate without the pelvis rotating - when you squat your femurs/hips rotate internally and externally in the pelvis as you flex and extend the hip.

Ha, you totally read my confusion.. &my brain was having trouble combining Hershyzer with the Swivel chair. But just did swivel chair again and I'm back. "Gas Pedal, Gas Pedal"

Sometimes I wonder what amount of guys who can throw over 450' got there by having to go through all of the steps, compared to people who just "got it" and could throw far pretty early on.

I don't think anyone just "got it". Pretty much all the top pros starting playing well before they were 18, and the few others that started in their 20s had excelled in other sports and were able to translate their previously learned skill and athleticism quickly.

We'll appreciate it more, SlowPlastic.

I do wonder if that's part of the reason some of the pro's clinics seem to be just OK. That is, because they picked it up at earlier age more quickly, they didn't have to struggle through it mentally and therefore don't really know how to explain how they do what do

 

[RandyC]

I don't think anyone just "got it". Pretty much all the top pros starting playing well before they were 18, and the few others that started in their 20s had excelled in other sports and were able to translate their previously learned skill and athleticism quickly.

I have not excelled in sports if you dont count videogames. I started playing when I was 28, I am 31 now. My road to 500ft was pretty much failing daily and constant frustration. Getting to 350ft+ was relatively easy and fast. Couple months ago I started seeing some success, kept refining it and now I´d like to think that I finally understand how to throw.

The sheer amount of practice I did is stupid, rain, snow, cold didnt matter, I was throwing discs. Blisters, knee pain, hip pain, joint pain etc. Still kept going and funnilly enough due to my new found form almost all the stress from my body has gone away. I am literally creeping up on the tee and throwing with very little effort.

When I was having my first moments of success I was posting here and saying that you should kinda throw behind your back or atleast that´s how it feels like. I think what I had discovered was that I was able to brace my whole right side.

As in before when the plant foot hit the ground the energy transfer started going up to my knee, to my hip and from there to my upper body and I would rotate like hell. I was basically spending the energy in upper body rotation and the arm would follow thru. Distance was 400ish, accuracy decent. I belive you are here. (slowplastic)
That´s how I thought the throw should happen, hips rotate, they rotate the upper body and arm follows. The thought is probably correct but the execution completely wrong, the amount they move is very miniscule and not manually done.

What I do now is creep up my x-step _VERY_ slow. Push from my rear instep in to the plant. Keep my toes closed, hips closed, upper body closed, shoulder closed and pull thru the dingle arm. It feels like I am still at the same position as in my reachback when I am the right pec but in reality my body has moved a bit so I don´t hit myself but still trying to keep everything closed.

The same energy transfer described above has started going up in to my knee, hip, upperbody and finally in to my shoulder but I am still keeping everything closed. Now it has to go somewhere right? So it goes straight in to my arm which is somewhere in the right pec position and that flings the lower arm open. I still feel like I am extremly closed, and suddenly the energy yanks my whole body flying while my plant heel "drills" in to the ground. Either my left foot flys open in to the sky like a karate kick or I fall backwards and finish balanced after the throw.

So in short what I am manually doing in order. Push from instep, keep everything closed, start pulling/slinging with the momentum in to the direction of the instep push, keep everything closed. I´ll post a video of my new found form soon if it helps.
Sorry for the long post.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for the explanation, it's very useful to hear the comparison between what you were doing and are now doing. I definitely can feel like I open up/pivot everything, and sometimes if I try to stay too closed then I feel jammed up in my hips and lower back. Feeling like it stays closed longer is a good way to think about it. I can feel that spring loading effect if I reach back very late, and I have to remember to not lead the throw by turning ahead.

Looking at some video I took today it's going to be in the right direction. I got on top of my right hip, and rise up. It reminds me of how Eagle gets on his front leg when the disc is swinging out ahead of him. It was frustrating having my upper body go to crap but as I've found so many times, got to get the fundamentals correct first. So this is a more proper way to get things happening from the ground up, and I've got into a position I never have before, so that's a good step forward. Hopefully having this later and farther turn back will enable me to stay closed longer as well. If I'm doing the step before wrong, then I'd be fighting myself trying to get to the right finish point.

 

[RandyC]

Thanks for the explanation, it's very useful to hear the comparison between what you were doing and are now doing. I definitely can feel like I open up/pivot everything, and sometimes if I try to stay too closed then I feel jammed up in my hips and lower back. Feeling like it stays closed longer is a good way to think about it. I can feel that spring loading effect if I reach back very late, and I have to remember to not lead the throw by turning ahead.

Looking at some video I took today it's going to be in the right direction. I got on top of my right hip, and rise up. It reminds me of how Eagle gets on his front leg when the disc is swinging out ahead of him. It was frustrating having my upper body go to crap but as I've found so many times, got to get the fundamentals correct first. So this is a more proper way to get things happening from the ground up, and I've got into a position I never have before, so that's a good step forward. Hopefully having this later and farther turn back will enable me to stay closed longer as well. If I'm doing the step before wrong, then I'd be fighting myself trying to get to the right finish point.

If you want to try how it kinda feels, just stand still and throw behind your back without doing any rotation or weight shift. Point forward with the disc and pull it behind with loose arm. It should yank your body a bit.

 

[billyjacko]

Remember that your hips(femurs) can rotate without the pelvis rotating

This is the anatomy lesson I've been missing. I didn't know this is why, but figuring this out got me through my recent breakthrough. I've now been focusing my "Hip rotation" on my upper leg "femur/thigh" rather than my pelvis (which I always thought of as my hip.) Lol, now I feel stupid typing it out. The only way to drive that upper leg in is by pressing the gas peddle properly, which turns the leg upward and outward as the front hip clears.

 

[slowplastic]

I had much more success today. Slowing way down, starting with 150-250' putter and midrange shots at as low power as possible while maintaining form helped me keep my timing. Also staying closed, trying to not rotate my torso was on my mind and helpful. I tried creeping up the teepad just stupid slow and was able to throw my normal distances.

After I have crushed the can and I am in my swing, the front leg extends. Should it feel like it's pushing my body upward? Almost like a jumping feeling even if it stays on the ground? I think this may be right as I've seen elite players completely come off the ground in the follow through on very high power shots...

My closest comparison is my RH baseball swing, but my front leg is so much farther ahead in that stride (and the angle is somewhat back) that the brace feels like it's diagonal pushing back at me and upwards. It's inherently different since in the follow through I end up back onto my rear foot, rather than out to the left or all the way around as in RHBH disc golf.