~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

Excellent visualizations. I feel like I get everything lengthy when I throw drivers, and it's really apparent when I see it filmed. I feel like I stretch out the backswing and the step, and "wait" until it's time to drive and snap...and those frames make that make sense. I have to wait until I get inside my stride, and I have to wait until my arm catches up. Sometimes I'll throw 60% midrange shots trying to have the McBeth upright form and they really whip out there, I guess I'm just staying inside my stance better and having more leverage.

I'll try to be aware of my stance width/body weight...quick and effective rather than lengthy and sloshy outside my feet. And of course the swing plane...that will take some work I bet. I can't believe how crazy it looks on film but how cleanly I can throw understable stuff. Obviously it's robbing me of power. I've just been trying to throw how it "feels" safe and easy on my arm rather than analyzing it as much as backhands. I just swung a hammer around and I can feel how my normal extended reachback and elbow drop release all the tension on my arm midway through, instead of keeping the arm/weight tight to load up. It'll be an adjustment to the tempo and feel.

Honestly though I didn't think I'd ever throw FH's as far as I even am now, so seeing these things to fix and make it more powerful with a safer arm plane is really good.

 

[slowplastic]

The more I swing hammers around the more I realize how much of a disconnect I've been getting during much of my swing.

I just want to be clear about the lead with the elbow stuff, as you talked about in frame 2. I'll talk about this from side perspective like in the pictures. So at a point you do want to get the elbow ahead of the shoulder plane? Obviously the elbow will be ahead of the wrist and disc, which lag behind (I am not really doing this because my lower arm is so off plane), but you want to tell the upper arm/elbow to move ahead of the shoulders slightly, rather than just being along for the ride until the hit?

At what point is this going to be potentially leading to golfer's elbow? Do you have to get the elbow way out ahead of the shoulder plane, more than the say 20 or so degrees we both have in those marked up pictures to lead to damage?

I'm feeling really good leverage with these planes and the arm swings more in time with the bracing, feels more like a baseball swing. I'm a little concerned about learning the new hit point but also pretty excited because going back to the old swing, it feels so loose and disconnected.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. So at a point you do want to get the elbow ahead of the shoulder plane? Obviously the elbow will be ahead of the wrist and disc, which lag behind (I am not really doing this because my lower arm is so off plane), but you want to tell the upper arm/elbow to move ahead of the shoulders slightly, rather than just being along for the ride until the hit?

2. At what point is this going to be potentially leading to golfer's elbow? Do you have to get the elbow way out ahead of the shoulder plane, more than the say 20 or so degrees we both have in those marked up pictures to lead to damage?

1. My elbow is always relatively forward the shoulder, same with BH and FH. The elbow doesn't really move much if any, relative to the shoulders, elbow basically just flexes and extends along with the shoulder/body turning. If the elbow gets behind the shoulder it puts you in a weird anatomical position where you really have to wind or crank the arm around.

2. Golfer's elbow is actually wrist/grip related, it's not really from the elbow but that is where the pain develops in those flexor tendons in the forearm that go down to the wrist from the elbow. I've never had elbow pain from FH. I did have golfer's elbow from my BH grip being too tight some years ago.

Elbow lead does stress the Ulnar Collateral Ligament(Tommy John) in the elbow, but the true cause of tearing the UCL is how the rest of body puts that force into the elbow with incorrect sequenced weightshift breaking down the kinetic chain("inverted W" often an indicator). Supination also adds stress to the UCL and this is another reason why palm to the sky is bad advice. Pronation/wrist roll over is the safe and natural release of the kinetic chain. Hyzer should be adjusted with more trunk lean/spine tilt into the shot, not supination.

https://armorypitching.com/and-heres-how-poor-deceleration-can-tear-your-ucl/

Watch SC Farm Hammer video in my previous post from 5-7min, this is extremely important to protect yourself and natural!

 

[SimonF88]

So leading with the elbow is a active move or should i happen with good shoulder roatation? Beacuse if i have my arm really relaxed it's harder to get the elbow forward, it's almost always behind, so i have been trying to reach back a little bit less just to get it forward. Toughts?

 

[slowplastic]

So leading with the elbow is a active move or should i happen with good shoulder roatation? Beacuse if i have my arm really relaxed it's harder to get the elbow forward, it's almost always behind, so i have been trying to reach back a little bit less just to get it forward. Toughts?

I agree, if you keep the upper arm relaxed it will come forward with the shoulders but be behind them. I believe the best explanation is to keep it slightly ahead of the shoulders essentially "the entire time". Maybe at reachback you'll get it back in line with the shoulders rather than out front, but on the way forward keep a bit of tension in the upper arm so that it stays coming forward at the same pace as the shoulders and just ahead of them.

What it feels like to me is that I am trying to get a clean snap, and it works out...I know that's so vague but I'm meaning that I'm trying to make sure I get to the hit point rather than letting the hit point happen. If I try to stay too relaxed then the upper arm/elbow lags behind. What to avoid is the elbow-ahead "whip it" feeling where you aren't letting the shoulders get the arm/elbow forward, while maintaining the taught/tension feeling, but instead are trying to get that elbow out ahead to snap everything.

Of course I'm not doing it perfect yet but I'm getting closer, as I just went through these different attempts last time out on the field.

 

[sidewinder22]

So leading with the elbow is a active move or should i happen with good shoulder roatation? Beacuse if i have my arm really relaxed it's harder to get the elbow forward, it's almost always behind, so i have been trying to reach back a little bit less just to get it forward. Toughts?

 

[SimonF88]

Im sorry, i didin't specify, i was talking about backhand

 

[sidewinder22]

Im sorry, i didin't specify, i was talking about backhand

Then with the elbow still bent and arm supinated palm up from the FH forward loaded position just turn your forearm over palm down and switch to BH grip. Your elbow should still be in the same forward position to the shoulder/s and elbow moves/turns up higher while the arm/disc moves lower and rotates/pronates. The elbow shouldn't really move much in BH or FH relative to the shoulders, but allowed to bend and extend and swing the lower arm and disc back and forward with the shoulders/body.

 

[slowplastic]

SimonF88 my above post was also thinking you were talking about FH, just if it seems confusing.

That arm rotation for FH to BH is so obvious but I'd never done that. Just another piece of evidence telling me my shoulder angle is too small in my BH. I think it's one of the main reasons I keep having my elbow drop and disc go up mid swing.

So in the BH X-step, I now feel like I'm trying to drive my weight over my whole plant foot, almost like a hockey stop on the front foot although still going toe-heel. It's the balanced feeling I get from the ride the bull clip in SW22's video. I feel like this shift direction, along with pushing off the back foot's instep more than toes, allows my rear leg to counter the throw better rather than just moving straight forward. If filmed from the side but behind the back, should the rear leg counter forward until the brace happens and then swing around to the left, or is it ok for the rear leg to keep countering forward even after the bracing feeling? I've felt both happen to an extent but I'm still messing with a lot of things and I don't know which is the ultimate goal.

For example in this video Sexton's rear leg keeps sliding targetwards countering his weight during the entire throw, while McBeth's counters until the brace happens, then his leg swings around.

 

[slowplastic]

^Sexton's rear leg counter is pretty extreme, but I wanted to show it for easy visualization. Koling's rear leg is more what I'm meaning though where his rear leg keeps mushing forward a bit to the right of the plant, even after the brace has happened.

 

[sidewinder22]

The King:

 

[slowplastic]

I finally made some progress. I've been trying to keep the elbow forward and shift onto my front leg/foot, feel it supporting my spine, rather than getting behind my heel. It became clear that getting behind my heel was causing my torso to tilt back with the right shoulder above the left. Then my forearm would be parallel to the ground in the swing, but be way up with respect to my torso. I couldn't fix the arm because my base balance was wrong. I finally figured out the one leg swing, and today incorporated that feel into an X-step. I needed to shift more into my instep/foot, and also keep my upper body more stacked instead of leaned back. Felt like I was pushing my shoulder blades toward the target while I was turned back in the backswing, but it became automatic quickly.

Since I was concentrating on this new momentum direction and balance, my left arm went pretty stagnant. I know I need to get the left arm in sooner, and I know my right forearm is up a bit too high...but, it's a large improvement from before. This was my first day throwing with this form so I know these things will come with time. But I basically added 20' to my average distances, it was great. I was throwing my fairways in the 360-380' range every single time. This throw below was a 350' Teebird down a low ceiling tunnel. What I am concerned with or wondering about, is the weird hop that I do to release the follow through tension upward. I'm not trying to do it, it just happened in basically every shot over 70% power today. Is this a bad sign of anything? Also am I striding forward in the Hershyzer position or would I be "kicking the wall" with my right foot? Obviously, anything else?

https://vimeo.com/234608914

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah not enough hip/butt lead from the front foot in Hershyzer. Your balance gets funky in your stride on your rear leg, so you aren't quite able to fall into the plant more dynamically upright from behind.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I see/feel the absence of that Hershyzer lead, but what are you meaning with my left leg balance? Am I too linear in my pacing to set up for the Hershyzer feel, and needing more rhythm in the step? Or is my balance off in a certain direction?

 

[sidewinder22]

You aren't loading/squatting enough into the rear leg or maintaining enough butt wipe pressure.

 

[slowplastic]

So basically my weight shift is super weak. If I'm hitting these distances in that case, then I'm looking forward to actually figuring it out.

I definitely can see how Eagle and Paul are turned so much deeper back into the left hip when uncrossing the feet in the X-step and go into the Hershyzer type move.

 

[slowplastic]

Went out today, and when filmed from behind I'm much better at getting the nose over toes with this plant direction. It'll take quite a few sessions to get things together, I could get more shift from behind/Hershyzer but then would struggle with my torso/spine tilt and the ol' rising forearm to release level with the ground. At least I know what to do with these issues.

What I've been wondering for a while, is why my rear foot just drives straight forward when/after I shift my weight. I don't have that countering to the right side when my foot leaves the ground. It may get slightly airborne, but then the toes drag forward on the teepad before my leg swings around left in the follow through. When I walk through my throw indoors with a towel or nothing, I feel my left foot slide behind me when I drive off the instep. It just happens. But obviously in a real throw things are different, and whenever I film it my left foot just goes straight forward. No pro's that I know of do this. so it can't be right. Any clue what part of my balance is wrong that is not allowing my left foot to counter behind me or drive left and upwards like the also common Koling type of thing?

 

[sidewinder22]

What I've been wondering for a while, is why my rear foot just drives straight forward when/after I shift my weight.

Any clue what part of my balance is wrong that is not allowing my left foot to counter behind me or drive left and upwards like the also common Koling type of thing?

Why is answered in the last post and many before... balance and not loaded all the way into the rear leg/foot, "the move".

Note how your balance is flat on both feet from the first step and open stance so your feet are moving backward and forward instead of lateral. Note how Jerm is up on toes in Turbo Encabulator/Ride the Bull with stance more lateral/closed.

You want your feet to move like Walken:

 

[slowplastic]

That side by side picture made it click this time.

 

[slowplastic]

I've been practicing standstill/one step shots a lot the last couple of sessions since I realized that my form is fundamentally worse than I thought. I thought it was the X-step messing with things, but even my basics were worse than I knew.

Here are behind and side views of one step type shots. I was only losing about 10% distance from normal, for example the side video was 300' with a mid. I have been trying to stride more in line at the target, the best way to describe is like keeping my momentum vector narrower in the last stride, rather than drifting left. Along with that, I have been trying to stay closed in the crush the can feel onto the plant, and be stacked on this foot, nose over toes style. This is helping my shoulders stay more level, my forearm isn't as terrible as before, and my rear foot is finally countering too. I was also working on left arm a bit but that was after these shots and I stopped filming.

Right direction? Am I finally planting closed enough without drifting? I practiced some shots with the X-step and could get the same feeling, but didn't try anything over 70% power or so. But my plant stride was finally narrower automatically when trying to get this feeling.

https://vimeo.com/236168783

https://vimeo.com/236168841