~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

Note that the camera was set up differently between these throws, so the teepad angle is slightly different:

And my extension/balance at the hit:

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, your balance is quite off on the rear leg and not quite making it totally balanced on the front leg which stops you from following through smoothly all the way so your left shoulder should remain pointed at the target in the finish. You also turn your front foot clockwise into the plant instead of either anti-clockwise or straight. The balance issue I see start in the x-step as you step behind too far to the right side of tee pad, so your foot is moving around you instead of under you. You always want your feet to be under you dynamically.

I also think you are over doing it the left arm in the backswing which either throws you off balance or is counter-balancing you being out of balance, the turn should happen form the hips. Totally unnecessary for the rear elbow to crank back and IMO it's bad, you want to keep it tight and close to your center.

Note how my shoulders are stacked right over my toes with a straight stride, Lizotte's front shoulder is stacked over front toes, but rear shoulder is inside rear foot due to his leftward step at plant off the rear foot. Also note how your rear elbow is way high compared to us, and we keep the disc is inside the shoulder while your disc is outside your shoulder, so our grip is leveraged on the disc further back.

 

[slowplastic]

Interesting, so my reachback is out too wide at that point? I think I will actually be able to play around with this a little more now, as the hit point anticipation/shift feeling I have should keep the disc on plane throughout the pull through. I had to try to keep really wide before and try to minimize the disc rise and wave thing at the right pec, but now that I hopefully have solved that issue I will try to get better leverage throughout.

I also noticed that the rear toes thing is from stepping the leg in behind, I think I am keeping the left leg and knee too straight during my X-step. I will move it underneath my hip and bend it as much as necessary to try to get that to work during the X-step. I can see I don't load into my back hip as deeply as you or any pro footage, so getting better balance onto my back foot should help.

My left arm/elbow at reachback has been a problem for a long time. Again this whole hit point focus changes how I time my reachback and makes it much easier and more automatic, so hopefully I can play around with the left arm easier. Or try to pin it to my left thigh for a while.

 

[sidewinder22]

IMO it's best to work the backswing inside out, should also help your balance. You are going more outside in, which makes the transition funky and rounded off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio&t=365s

Not sure about your left knee being too straight. It needs to straighten in order to load internally. Maybe it's not straightening enough in the backswing, kind of looks to me like your knee bends too early as your front foot strides forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D4_tDZjX1w&t=5m

 

[billyjacko]

I also think you are over doing it the left arm in the backswing which either throws you off balance or is counter-balancing you being out of balance, the turn should happen form the hips. Totally unnecessary for the rear elbow to crank back and IMO it's bad, you want to keep it tight and close to your center.

My left arm/elbow at reachback has been a problem for a long time. Again this whole hit point focus changes how I time my reachback and makes it much easier and more automatic, so hopefully I can play around with the left arm easier. Or try to pin it to my left thigh for a while.

The slinging the elbow back is trap to make the reach back feel more powerful/quick. Early on it might have accidentally got my spine more upright, so helped with distance, but it lags behind the weight shift if you do it this way. I'm still struggling with the off arm, but I've started thinking of it anticipating the weight shift. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the furthest your weight is off of your plant foot so it kind of needs to initiate the shift (I think Paige and Mcbeth are great examples of this). You pretty much have to keep it in tight if you think of it this way. Elbow to hip.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok, I'm pretty sure I understand what to work on. Or at least enough of what to get consistent next. I feel like it's starting to get to the point of honing in rather than full rebuilds/changes, although these adjustments are crucial for overall balance and power.

Just going through some throwing motions indoors, being more balanced on my rear leg and turning back "inside" my stance lets me follow through to glide my rear shoulder all the way to the target, so this is a good sign. My feeling of having my rear leg straight before was a case of feeling and video being different...I was feeling my femur being straight down but subconsciously bending my knee and sending my foot behind me so it didn't drag the teepad. I can now try to feel that foot underneath me and let my hip/femur set up a bit differently.

The left elbow will be the most irritating I think, but hopefully with the swinging "inside" my stance thing it won't need to counterbalance the backswing as drastically.

 

[slowplastic]

I've been making consistent progress at small things, but am stuck a little now. But for the good things...I'm hitting my lines more consistently and my average scores have been better by probably 3 strokes. What good is 3 strokes if I can't hit 450 though...I mean wait...we play for score I guess?

But I'm staying a bit more balanced over my feet, ending up following through fully, staying more closed as I'm planting, and I finally am figuring out the off arm. Trying to mimic GG's left arm in the living room made me actually feel like what Drew Gibson does...then when I tried it on the course it ended up looking like McBeth with the arm in/forward and then swim move. Basically I'm trying to get the arm to counter the hit point rather than get it forward for momentum. Seems to help. If anything looks like any of those 3 guys in a throw then that's good.

What I can't figure out is my spine tilt and why my right arm gets so high. I think they are related. This throw is more off balance in a way as I hop back, so it should show the flaws more. I think it's the baseball swing background that is messing me up. During my swing, from the side view, my spine is very vertical or even tilted slightly back...while most pro's have a forward tilt to the spine. After my impact/hit my spine gets that forward tilt suddenly, so I'm obviously not maintaining balance right. I think my spine tilt jolt is why I end up pulling the disc so high to keep it "level" with my intended aim point...if I try to force a lower pull through I end up with crap hyzers and huge power loss...it's not just a simple arm slot fix I think, it's more fundamental.

Do I need more "tilted spiral" over my toes? I've been trying to be very upright to stay over my feet and not drift left on my plant...but now that I've minimized that stuff in my X-step should I experiment with a bit more tilt? Or is there something else leading to this spine angle? I also see that my rear foot should probably angle backwards slightly more too.

https://vimeo.com/265944356

 

[billyjacko]

What I can't figure out is my spine tilt and why my right arm gets so high. I think they are related. This throw is more off balance in a way as I hop back, so it should show the flaws more. I think it's the baseball swing background that is messing me up. During my swing, from the side view, my spine is very vertical or even tilted slightly back...while most pro's have a forward tilt to the spine. After my impact/hit my spine gets that forward tilt suddenly, so I'm obviously not maintaining balance right. I think my spine tilt jolt is why I end up pulling the disc so high to keep it "level" with my intended aim point...if I try to force a lower pull through I end up with crap hyzers and huge power loss...it's not just a simple arm slot fix I think, it's more fundamental.

As I was reading through some of this, I started thinking nose angle issues, then you wrote that last part, lol. I have kind of the opposite issue as you, I start my pull too low. If I try to correct it, the disc comes out high and not on the intended angle (too much hyzer.) After reading this article posted in the Eagle McMahon AMA on reddit http://www.heavydisc.com/2015/02/the-downward-tilt.html, I've been experimenting with the briefcase pull you see from prominent players like Eagle, Simon and GG. It says in the article it helps release with more nose down angle, and I've found it's absolutely true. It seems to help with inside out pull, and the disc comes out like a laser beam.

I think my low pull causes me to leak too far over my knees, and your high may be part of the issue with leaning back. This palm down pull has helped me pull flat without the angle issues (I think it really helps keep my hand on the outside of the disc.) I've also been focusing on spine stacked over the knees rather than the feet, and that seems to be helping with balance. Just some thoughts from another struggling player

I think the behind view is where you get a good feel for how pulling this way makes you more narrow.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your stride is pigeon toed and end up turning open into the plant - keep front hip/leg more neutral in stride and turn further back into rear hip to close whole front side back more. Also see how your front hip is striding higher so everything is tilted back and your rear hip is scrunched up instead of clearing back/targetward/hogan power move/butt wipe/hershyzer.

See how Simon's body is turned further back in Door Frame with hips/butt leading more and effortless. His spine is balanced and braced tilt against the pelvis in the stride and much more neutral and athletic/dynamic position. Double Crush the Can.

You aren't really making the forward hip hogan move in your backswing, but trying to make it the front and your stride ends up being like 6-12" too long and can't really land on your toes first/turned back from rear hip.

 

[slowplastic]

Those images were extremely helpful. It's definitely what I've been doing...trying to feel that "drop" to the plant and doing it by raising the front hip during the X-step I guess. This made it so I couldn't turn backwards the same way. I also constantly have problems dragging my front foot on uneven teepads, and I guess it's because I couldn't really lift my leg properly with that weird pelvis tilt.

I tried some different things a little bit today, it's going to be a fairly large change to incorporate it with a new arm plane to counteract my old swing. But I could definitely feel how I would turn back the pelvis more level, and it would help me land closed. I still want to turn that front foot in a bit, but at least now this makes sense with where my spine tilt originated from. I had best results throwing 60% putters and mids, since I would plant much narrower. The difference I would describe as the hips feeling extremely "quick". They just popped around and I ended up overthrowing some midrange shots by 30-40'...not that it was far as it was only 300-310' but I was putting in almost no effort and the throws felt very quick.

Should the front hip be pretty neutral as you are planting in the heel-toe motion, and it is the pelvis being closed that leads to that plant foot angle? As in I should not be thinking about internally rotating the femur really at all?

 

[sidewinder22]

Should the front hip be pretty neutral as you are planting in the heel-toe motion, and it is the pelvis being closed that leads to that plant foot angle? As in I should not be thinking about internally rotating the femur really at all?

Yes, fairly neutral front hip/leg into plant, gives you most athletic mobility to move quick any direction.

Yes, closed pelvis. It's closed because you should have rotated the pelvis back into the rear hip/femur, and rear hip/femur turns/clears pelvis more closed in backswing/targetward - Hogan Power Move. Everything is mirrored backward and forward. After plant, pelvis internally rotates into front hip/femur and clears/turns out/back.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok, slowly getting better but I just want to make sure I'm on the right track. Here is a standstill from the side, and X-step from behind.

I concentrated on trying to be on top of my feet rather than toes, lifting the front leg off the ground rather than tilting the hips, and trying to land closed. The standstill has a crazy tap dance front foot, but I don't think it's full on stanky chicken because I land with good support on the leg rather than pre-spinning the knee once I'm actually transferring. However I do think the stride is a touch long on this standstill, on another shot I video'd at slightly lower power I put the foot more straight down and ended up on top of the leg easier.

On some standstills I was really loading into the rear foot rather than instep/toes, and on some cases I saw I was pushing off the instep/heel rather than instep/toes. I just want to make sure I am loading into the foot and pushing correctly in this standstill clip...it's more all at once off the foot/instep than I had been before, but the ankle does move forward first. It looks quick. My standstills like this were 280/300/330 for putter/mid/fairway, so like 10% loss from a good X-step throw but they felt way more efficient.

On the X-step clip I wanted to show my balance over my feet...I have to go so slowly to keep this balance but I hope it's the right direction. I'm letting my heels touch the ground but my butt is finally over my foot rather than my toes. Is this too lazy on the heel or is this ok at this pace?

I can see that I now have the disc too far behind my body, not wide enough arm angle. I changed it slightly after this video and it felt better and got more power again, but I'm really going to have to sort that out. Mostly I want to know about my lower body, my balance on my feet, and my stride.

https://vimeo.com/272453515

https://vimeo.com/272453922

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Quickly popping over, didn't have a ton of time - but looks like you're upper arm frame is collapsing and leading to hugging yourself. Taking that disc off the line leads to a # of issues, as you know.

I couldn't get a great screen cap of the next frame, but I think you're head is cheating forward faster than the disc.

 

[slowplastic]

^Yeah from the back perspective my hand is in line with my front heel rather than front toes...too far behind my body. Collapses too but is likely increased by reaching back too much behind my torso to start with.

The head thing I'm actually wondering if it's a shoulder thing too. My lead shoulder is always above my back shoulder. Lots of pro's have the lead shoulder go under. I'm not sure if I should try to turn back underneath more with the lead shoulder or if/how I should change this or what. I have a high pull through, like McBeth, and his lead shoulder is often a bit higher but he certainly doesn't have the disc go off line.

And shift + arrow left and right for frame by frame on that player.

 

[sidewinder22]

In the standstill, you pick up your front foot/leg and turn it back and forth in the hip socket. You want your foot/leg to hang neutral to the pelvis, so pelvis turns back/de-weighting front foot, so leg/foot follows along and turns closed with pelvis. Hard to tell from camera angle, but looks like you need to straighten up the rear leg more in the backswing, so you don't have to pick up the front foot and bend the knee/hip so much. Your feet end up separating well ahead of your knees, I'd like to see your legs straighter and more lateral so feet and knee separate more together in the stride, while turning the pelvis/front leg/foot closed together later into the plant. Your front foot strides closed, but turns open/clockwise into the plant instead of counterclockwise/or straight(needs to happen from the pelvis).

Your x-step rear view kind of confirms my suspicion about the rear leg too bent, and shows you more flat footed and having to pick up the front leg to stride. Also shows that your front shoulder is coming through too much around/inside your front foot/knee(right tee side), instead of the shoulder coming more forward over the knee/foot more toward left tee side. Being more on your toes/insteps should help your balance to allow the shoulder to rotate over the foot like I talk about in end of Swivel Chair Drill.

 

[slowplastic]

I've been trying to figure out how to level out my shoulders, or slide my upper spine forward or what...but shoulder over foot is 100% different in feel. I've been feeling like my throwing shoulder has been balanced over my lead hip, so that makes sense why it's "inside my foot" during the swing, then I jolt forward after release. This instantly feels different just walking through the motion indoors, hopefully this will help my planes and arm weirdness. But very fast conceptual click.

Flat footed...haha yeah. I was too on the toes before and falling to the left of the teepad before. Now I'm flat footed but on top of my feet and going straighter down the line. I'll get to that Goldilocks zone eventually. Thanks for pointing out rear leg squat/bend too much. I'll work on that and try to quit all my excess front hip rotations. When I planted closed in standstills they felt so...unleashed I guess is the best way to describe it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks for pointing out rear leg squat/bend too much.

To be clear that is just in the backswing. You want to extend the leg into the backswing, this is the main reason why top players end up hopping in x-step, extending the leg clears it out of the way for the backswing to swing back and still maintain posture leveraged forward, plus you get more free weight/acceleration of gravity.

In the transition forward you want to fall/squat/compress more into the plant with lower center of gravity.

 

[slowplastic]

Also shows that your front shoulder is coming through too much around/inside your front foot/knee(right tee side), instead of the shoulder coming more forward over the knee/foot more toward left tee side. Being more on your toes/insteps should help your balance to allow the shoulder to rotate over the foot like I talk about in end of Swivel Chair Drill.

Ok so I got some throws with this thinking. It feels different. My arm still comes up and I still have lots of things to fix/think about, but I crushed some shots. For example on a hole I have played a bunch of times in the past I threw a Felon low ceiling for a straight to fade 270'ish easy hyzer...instead it went 8' high and carried 340' dead straight

So I would like some clarification on what it should actually feel like...I think I've been thinking of the brace axis incorrectly.

I had been trying to set my lower spine to my plant/brace, and rotate around the spine. Each shoulder above each hip. Always centered on the spine and in good nearly restrictive balance.

What it felt like today is that there was another axis temporarily, kind of from my foot up to my shoulder. Or at least from my right shoulder straight down to the ground. My right shoulder would stay in one place momentarily as my arm would unwind, and my left shoulder and torso would swing forward and through the shot continually. It felt like James Conrad, how he gets forward and through, in comparison to how upright and restricted/back I felt before.

I guess in the past my right shoulder had been continually moving around my spine during the throw, and likely moving backwards by the time my arm was unwinding. So really, should the throw feel more tilted/unimpeded and like the torso keeps swinging through? I think this is right, it's just so different than my concept has been. It felt in balance but I felt like I wanted to keep going forward more easily...but definitely not "over the top".

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok so I got some throws with this thinking. It feels different. My arm still comes up and I still have lots of things to fix/think about, but I crushed some shots. For example on a hole I have played a bunch of times in the past I threw a Felon low ceiling for a straight to fade 270'ish easy hyzer...instead it went 8' high and carried 340' dead straight

So I would like some clarification on what it should actually feel like...I think I've been thinking of the brace axis incorrectly.

I had been trying to set my lower spine to my plant/brace, and rotate around the spine. Each shoulder above each hip. Always centered on the spine and in good nearly restrictive balance.

What it felt like today is that there was another axis temporarily, kind of from my foot up to my shoulder. Or at least from my right shoulder straight down to the ground. My right shoulder would stay in one place momentarily as my arm would unwind, and my left shoulder and torso would swing forward and through the shot continually. It felt like James Conrad, how he gets forward and through, in comparison to how upright and restricted/back I felt before.

I guess in the past my right shoulder had been continually moving around my spine during the throw, and likely moving backwards by the time my arm was unwinding. So really, should the throw feel more tilted/unimpeded and like the torso keeps swinging through? I think this is right, it's just so different than my concept has been. It felt in balance but I felt like I wanted to keep going forward more easily...but definitely not "over the top".

Sounds like you are close to the right track. Does it makes sense when Mike Maves says there is a re-orientation of spine, and when SC says this might feel like a reverse pivot, but is not? James Conrad is a Crazy Forward Tilted Spiral, the rear side really gets whipped or catapulted though targetward in the finish. KJ Nybo and Ken Jarvis are more upright Super Tilted Spiral with more balanced finish through center of gravity and bigger smash factor.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that makes sense. I just went by feel and I totally get how it can "feel like a reverse pivot" but it's not. In this Jarvis bro's video it is easiest to see on Marc's hyzer shot at the 2 minute mark, his right shoulder stays in place and his left shoulder continues around/through and past his plant foot...but his weight is still balanced so he stands up. I think I was afraid to let anything leak past the plant visually before, but I just went by feel today and even though the left shoulder went "around" a different axis I was still in balance and not tipping forward. My James Conrad comment was because he is the most extreme example, and compared to how restricted in balance I've been trying to keep myself, I finally started to understand how he throws a disc. Until now I haven't understood how his mechanics are actually ok.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncFsq7vqE3w

I guess the difference is I thought the spine was the axis and the head had to stay put. But the throwing shoulder stays in place and the head keeps moving forward with that tilted axis, and the left shoulder swings around out wider. But it all feels targetward rather than rotational...at least so far in the couple hours I've messed with it. It's just so different. I was definitely smashing trees with Leos and Teebirds in the air at the end of tunnels that I have barely reached in the past.

I still don't understand KJ's throw/balance. But I guess if I'm not embellishing the feel, it's mostly like Ricky how he continues straight through the shot, and the left shoulder and head end up going past the plant very quickly after release even though he's not going over the top at all. It's just open and unrestricted feeling.

I think this is finally a breakthrough beginning rather than just optimizing what I've been doing.