~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

Questions nobody can answer except for you, it all depends on your dynamics and feel/tune with gravity. I can only tell you that you are out of balance after the fact based on your positioning.

I think it's hilarious my riding the bull gif is labelled NSFW.


It's really cool when these swings sync up together:

 

[slowplastic]

Nice gif collection. I think this is making some sense. I believe I had too much offset between my feet for my reachback length and stance width, and that caused me to jam up rather than clear the hip and shoot my spine around/forward and collapse. Going through dry swings in the living room...which always look better form-wise than the real thing for some stupid reason...when offsetting my feet less my leg clears and I am more upright on the plant.

 

[billyjacko]

Nice gif collection. I think this is making some sense. I believe I had too much offset between my feet for my reachback length and stance width, and that caused me to jam up rather than clear the hip and shoot my spine around/forward and collapse. Going through dry swings in the living room...which always look better form-wise than the real thing for some stupid reason...when offsetting my feet less my leg clears and I am more upright on the plant.

I'm just starting to figure out the hip swivel/ride the bull, and watching Ken Jarvis throw is really helping. I feel like he has the most stripped down "perfect form" out there. I've been focusing on this swivel/rotation into the plant/weight shift, combined with what HUB was talking about in his most recent Beto drill video about getting the disc to the center chest with the shoulders still turned away from the target. You can see Jarvis doing it here, and it's why it looks like the disc travels through Eagle's body when he's throwing. Swivel the hips, bring the disc to your chest before/as your shoulders begin to rotate, add a little hammer out action with the arm wrist, and the disc is flying 430-450 for me. It seems so bloody simple, I just can't seem to replicate it day in day out right now.

 

[slowplastic]

^Yeah I love watching his throw. So simple and efficient. I got some throws in today and my main problems are too much offset in the feet and too much turn back/reach back with the torso. Fake X-factor turning back the shoulders relative to the hips. Then trying to bring the disc forward to the elbow-forward position it has to catch up and that's what has been causing my disc to rise I think. I'm trying to keep the torso and upper arm as one unit and not even think about reaching back at all, it'll take practice because eventually I obviously will want a longer load and stride, but hopefully it'll feel the same just for longer.

Stuff isn't fixed but it's at least on a better path trying to stride very laterally, almost feels backwards in a way, so that I can land toe-heel, while not overturning my upper body on the reachback. Wasn't crushing drivers any better but I was lacing mids on very low lines, and seeing extra turn out of a few discs. My plant foot is staying closed as I plant and through the swing, the hit point is well in front of my plant foot, and my plant leg is getting out of the way a bit but it also isn't fully extending. I know I just need more of the same for a few sessions though, but right direction.

 

[sidewinder22]

I've been focusing on this swivel/rotation into the plant/weight shift, combined with what HUB was talking about in his most recent Beto drill video about getting the disc to the center chest with the shoulders still turned away from the target. You can see Jarvis doing it here, and it's why it looks like the disc travels through Eagle's body when he's throwing. Swivel the hips, bring the disc to your chest before/as your shoulders begin to rotate, add a little hammer out action with the arm wrist, and the disc is flying 430-450 for me. It seems so bloody simple, I just can't seem to replicate it day in day out right now.

Beto and Closed Shoulder are the shorthand Narrow - Wide arc away from your center.
Vs. a "reachback or backswing" where the arc goes Wide - Narrow - Wide from center - only difference is extending the elbow at the top of the backswing and bending back forward to center.

You have to make the forward hip move in the backswing first to be able to swivel the hips back forward properly/centered with closed shoulder and space to swing through. The Move or Hogan Power Move or Hershyzer/Butt Wipe happens in the backswing. Unless you are doing the one-arm olympic throw or 360 turnaround as there is no backswing.

You need to move your body taut around disc in the backswing instead of trying to place or jerk the disc to a spot in the backswing. The backswing should go where it wants to go, just like a hammer. You need to move your body to that weight/inertia and how you want to swing against it. You can't really force a hammer to a spot in the backswing, shouldn't with a disc either. Much easier to move your body to where you want to plant closed against it with most leverage.

Ken swings the disc right through where his center was(narrow), since he moved his center(hips/lower spine) forward out of the way and ahead of the swing, the disc has the space to swing through center and back out wide away from center with his weight leading the swing like a trebuchet.

Wish this footage was better, but still works:

 

[RFrance]

...Much easier to move your body to where you want to plant closed against it with most leverage.

Ken swings the disc right through where his center was(narrow), since he moved his center(hips/lower spine) forward out of the way and ahead of the swing, the disc has the space to swing through center and back out wide away from center with his weight leading the swing like a trebuchet.

Sidewinder this is a profound way of describing the leverage! It makes a lot more since than worrying about the disc placement. Like Shawn Clements says in the videos you recommend "Get out of the way."

 

[RFrance]

^^^
Typo. "It makes a lot more sense than worrying about the disc placement."

 

[UhhNegative]

What has struck me recently is how open the shoulders and hips are at the hit point. I've always thought to aim the hit point with the shoulders/hips basically parallel to the target, and even then I'm mostly still "grip locking" to the right. Of course, I guess that's because the arm opens wide away from the body, a feeling that has eluded me forever. For me if my shoulders are rotating open, my shot is going to the right with it unless my grip slips, but when I watch pros throw it's like the disc has a mind of its own and somehow still goes straight. But how do you aim if your shoulders/hips at the hit are essentially already open? Is it just timing?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I've seen a pretty resounding boost in power in my shot recently from the following takeaway, and it really came down to watching Eagle's back leg.

It's not pushing, it's collapsing into the brace just like the disc isn't pulling into the power pocket so much as collapsing into the power pocket - and it's working in concert and moving simultaneously into the brace.

I believe it's the number one telltale sign of a power thrower: Eagle, Simon, Paul, Kevin Jones

I don't know if it's the cause or the by product of a REAL settling into the frontside, but I don't think it matters. If you do this from the top of the backswing: roll back foot under and hang it like a flag and let it slide along a rail forward and directly into your plant knee as the disc comes forward - a bunch of good things happen.

When I see a player who's coming straight through the brace, I can pretty much guarantee that they aren't settling on the front side and I certainly won't see the back knee crushing forward.

Edit: Wanted to also say that when I was talking about this with Eagle a few years back, he literally said, "Oh, you mean how I smash my legs together?" when I was talking about how he settled so well on the frontside. I'd forgot about that until now.

 

[sidewinder22]

What has struck me recently is how open the shoulders and hips are at the hit point. I've always thought to aim the hit point with the shoulders/hips basically parallel to the target, and even then I'm mostly still "grip locking" to the right. Of course, I guess that's because the arm opens wide away from the body, a feeling that has eluded me forever. For me if my shoulders are rotating open, my shot is going to the right with it unless my grip slips, but when I watch pros throw it's like the disc has a mind of its own and somehow still goes straight. But how do you aim if your shoulders/hips at the hit are essentially already open? Is it just timing?

Would you say Ken's shoulders are open at release in the pic above? Maybe slightly, just enough open to get out of the way of the arm/disc. The hips and shoulders actually need to stop rotating to release the arm like Olympic hammer throw. Watch GG throw and you can see this. Jamie Sadlowski says his shoulders are closed through impact.

Aim by tossing the weight of the disc like a hammer. You need to feel the weight of the disc.

Also as HUB is describing the second part of the Hershyzer, the feet block or tangle or counter or smash like an Olympic hammer throw.

 

[slowplastic]

What has struck me recently is how open the shoulders and hips are at the hit point. I've always thought to aim the hit point with the shoulders/hips basically parallel to the target, and even then I'm mostly still "grip locking" to the right. Of course, I guess that's because the arm opens wide away from the body, a feeling that has eluded me forever. For me if my shoulders are rotating open, my shot is going to the right with it unless my grip slips, but when I watch pros throw it's like the disc has a mind of its own and somehow still goes straight. But how do you aim if your shoulders/hips at the hit are essentially already open? Is it just timing?

My hit point has changed a few times while adjusting form, but really the shoulders have never felt open. I know what you mean though, if you pause pro's at the hit the torso is like 45 degrees open...but the shoulders relative to hips are still closed or at most neutral.

From my last field work session I got my hit point way out front of my brace like HUB has been marking up my images, and even with my hit point forward and my stride more straight than ever before I am not griplocking right at all. I don't feel set up more right opening or anything. Like you said it just works out, I think the arm gets longer so the release is still down the momentum line. The main problem with griplocking is if your shoulders actually feel "open" that means you likely opened them yourself relative to your hips and that's definitely when griplocks happen. I didn't realize my hit point was forward and my torso was more forward facing until video...it doesn't feel like that even though it looks like that. Basically don't try to get to that forward facing hit point position, that is guaranteed griplock from opening the torso rather than having the body clear open.

 

[UhhNegative]

What do you mean open relative to the hips? I am still struggling to understand what it means versus what I'm seeing. Visually it looks like the hips are clearing (opening) and the shoulders are like 45 degrees open but the hand/disc is still moving targetward. Makes me think I'm missing something big. In my head I should be keeping my hips closed relative to the flight path but now I'm seeing actually they are almost facing the target at release which is.... odd to my tiny disc golf brain.

Hips turned back (door frame)

Hips already facing right of throw line; shoulders still turned back

Hips now basically perpindicular to throwing line, shoulders 45 degree angle to right of throwing line.

Full clip for reference:

 

[slowplastic]

^Draw a line through the pelvis, left hip to right hip. Then draw a line from left shoulder through right shoulder. In the first image of Simon the shoulders look to be 45 degrees closed of hips. In the second image it's still about 45 degrees. In the third image of beginning the extension/swing, the shoulders are still at least 20 degrees closed of the hips. It's not until the follow through that the shoulders open up more than the hips.

 

[UhhNegative]

Would you say Ken's shoulders are open at release in the pic above? Maybe slightly, just enough open to get out of the way of the arm/disc. The hips and shoulders actually need to stop rotating to release the arm like Olympic hammer throw. Watch GG throw and you can see this. Jamie Sadlowski says his shoulders are closed through impact.

Aim by tossing the weight of the disc like a hammer. You need to feel the weight of the disc.

Also as HUB is describing the second part of the Hershyzer, the feet block or tangle or counter or smash like an Olympic hammer throw.

It looks 45 degree open, I guess I'm confused as to the definition of open/closed when it comes to positioning. When I watch the closed shoulder snap drill, it appears the open/closed refers to the line of the throw, but is it supposed to be relative to the torso?

^Draw a line through the pelvis, left hip to right hip. Then draw a line from left shoulder through right shoulder. In the first image of Simon the shoulders look to be 45 degrees closed of hips. In the second image it's still about 45 degrees. In the third image of beginning the extension/swing, the shoulders are still at least 20 degrees closed of the hips. It's not until the follow through that the shoulders open up more than the hips.

Oh yeah I see that for sure, I just thought it was supposed to be closed relative to the disc path, but I see now I was wildly mistaken. This will hopefully change things for me.

 

[slowplastic]

It looks 45 degree open, I guess I'm confused as to the definition of open/closed when it comes to positioning. When I watch the closed shoulder snap drill, it appears the open/closed refers to the line of the throw, but is it supposed to be relative to the torso?

Open/closed has to be how two things relate, so it really matters what you're talking about at the time. I agree that the torso faces open relative to the throw line, but if you re-read my post a couple up I am trying to describe how I have found that shoulders open relative to hips is what leads me to griplocks, and keeping them closed relative to hips as the arm comes forward does not feel "open" even though I am definitely facing at least 45 degrees forward overall at the hit point.

 

[UhhNegative]

Ok so closed shoulders refers to shoulders being closed relative to the hips? Even though the hips are almost facing the target at release. I always thought everything was referring to the disc trajectory line.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Just for shiggles, I drew the lines as I imagined you meant them to be. Hopefully it will help visually demonstrate what y'all are talking about in an effort to help ourselves and other players.

I also copied/pasted the lines and placed them in the background in the same orientation to help see the angles.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok so closed shoulders refers to shoulders being closed relative to the hips? Even though the hips are almost facing the target at release. I always thought everything was referring to the disc trajectory line.

Also look up at the Griffey Jr. baseball swing gif SW22 posted a few posts back. Coaches often simply tell players to have your belt buckle facing the pitcher at contact, obviously it's not great advice since it tells you nothing about the mechanics to get there...but point is in that swing you kind of want to be 90 degrees forward when you release the bat but the shoulders definitely aren't ahead of the hips.

 

[UhhNegative]

I don't know how I haven't noticed this before now. Yeah the Ken gif is very obviously facing targetward at contact. But shoulders are closed.... relative to hips? Well this changes everything.

 

[slowplastic]

I don't know how I haven't noticed this before now. Yeah the Ken gif is very obviously facing targetward at contact. But shoulders are closed.... relative to hips? Well this changes everything.

Just don't overturn the shoulders back in the backswing/reachback, that has been my issue for years that I'm just finally fixing. That Schusterick driving clinic video where he does the standstills got me overdoing the reachback trying to mimic him, as I just focused on the wrong thing.

It kind of disconnected my torso from my hips in the reachback so I had to get myself caught up back forward to the power pocket position and that just gets everything out of whack. Basically if you try to keep everything together, you'll end up with that X-factor separation anyways in the right way.