~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

They swing outside->inside->out. I think it allows them to actually bring less speed into the power pocket and in turn that allows them more redirection of the disc (disc pivot) because the disc is coming in towards their chest during the initial part of the throw allowing them to keep the hand in a more leveraged position on the outside of the disc rather than more targetward like a straighter reachback.

It's less redirection in and out of the power zone.

 

[deyo7]

Inside Swing Drill isn't a rule, it's a tool to help prevent rounding(from the shoulder going outside specifically) and getting your body posture more upright balanced and stacked, Butt Wipe works the opposite side of this like having walls on both side of you going down a tighter hallway. Hershyzer 1 and 2 putt the walls in front and behind you so all these should really center your balance and posture tighter and faster and more efficient.

The backswing can go inside out or outside in as long as the shoulder stays leveraged inside. Most noobs start with an extreme outside in and end up collapsing/hugging themselves really bad. So to correct this you do the extreme opposite drill inside out, which technically should give you more acceleration sans the 360. The 360 turnaround/One-Arm Olympic Hammer Throw is actually outside in, but since you turn your body all the way around you get more acceleration and space to swing. If you go to the end of the One-Arm Olympic Hammer Throw I switch it to FH, so FH and BH are really the same principal.

OK, I gotcha. That makes sense - thank you.

Nice gif of the guy chucking other guys, clearly depicts the similarities of FH and BH good work.

I just re-watched your, "Stop Rounding, One Arm Olympic hammer throw" too. I can feel the promise in all this but need to put the disc down and do this outside before I break another wall.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok, it's been many updates lately but I feel like I'm finally, maybe, almost, getting close to having real form and power. It was 15-20MPH again so I have no idea what distances I am hitting, but it's feeling more and more intuitive. I did get an ace though so that's a good sign, just tried to stay closed to the plant, land, swing late, and hit the line with a putter, riding the wind to chains.

Mainly I want to know if this is better over the rear leg. I feel way more balanced, and I think this finally isn't too far the other way to being too flat footed...there's a behind view for that.

I also tried to get the rear arm in closer, it's not forward to the brace yet but it's not hanging way out like before. I am definitely keeping the swing arm more taught than before but it's a work in progress. Slight improvement, so it was good to understand now what I should be going for. This one will take time.

Also, sometimes in my follow through my head/upper spine goes past my plant knee and I end up with a very forward tilt. I think of it as the "Wysocki followthrough" like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEu4cm_RfdI . When my upper spine/head stay behind my plant then I end up more upright. Is this anything to be conscious of as indicating a balance problem, or is it ok depending on swing angle, momentum, plant length, etc.?

https://vimeo.com/286084906

https://vimeo.com/286085051

https://vimeo.com/286085216

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like to me like you are trying to keep your head down or something and not making it upright and balanced on the front leg from behind you. You are jamming/collapsing into the front leg which brings your shoulder and arm/disc up off plane and your head is tilted over the shoulder plane.

Rick is dynamically upright and balanced and rotating on a tilted spiral from braced front leg, and disc swings through center of gravity. Note his head is dynamically stacked upright/level to shoulders and so is his lower arm/disc. You are crossing the streams.

You want to feel like your chin is leading your nose forward on to the front leg. It might not look like Rick is doing that in the pic above, but he actually is if you rotate the image so his spine is vertical, his chin is leading the nose forward dynamically.

 

[slowplastic]

Wow. I was thinking how am I ever going to figure this out...I marked up an image compared to Simon, and I've been messing this up for years, etc.

Jamming. The. Shoulder. It clicked.

Yeah I've been "bracing" the throwing shoulder against things this whole time. Before I was trying to rotate it above the hip. Then after you said it swings over the plant foot I've been bracing it against the foot. If I do this same motion mirrored for a righty baseball swing it makes NO SENSE. I'd drop my shoulder plane and with two hands on a bat...well good luck not popping up if you can even make contact. But it's the exact same result when I mirror the issue. I realize you have said that it feels like you bring your rear shoulder to the plant and were in no way telling me to do what I've been doing, but I was still really restricting myself because I didn't know better.

So yeah...just swinging my torso clean through, it just, well swings through. Didn't need to do tons of reps of something, it just happens, at least in the living room.

I'm gonna be prepared for lots of shanks but this is a great find. I've been sick of my swing plane issues forever.

 

[texasissouth]

What does it refer to when SW and others refer to a "jammed" pivot. I've seen it mention hips and shoulder get jammed. Is that just not rotating them clear so they get in the way of the rest of the kinematic chain?
So in this case your arm is opening up but before your shoulder has rotated past the target?

 

[slowplastic]

What does it refer to when SW and others refer to a "jammed" pivot. I've seen it mention hips and shoulder get jammed. Is that just not rotating them clear so they get in the way of the rest of the kinematic chain?
So in this case your arm is opening up but before your shoulder has rotated past the target?

Yeah not allowed to pivot through freely, or to clear out of the way. The most common one is not clearing the front hip, and people trying to push their body weight "through" the brace targetwards. The front leg stops them, and when it doesn't clear back, then their body/torso gets shot over the plant hip since it's not moving or rotating.

For me I was trying to keep the front shoulder in the same place in space essentially once planted, to unload the arm. I was bracing it against the plant foot. So when viewed from the side it kind of stops moving forward and that means it has to go upwards since it wants to keep going somewhere, and then my swing planes go all crazy.

 

[sidewinder22]

Just a matter of getting balanced dynamically upright on the front leg vs crashing into it.

 

[slowplastic]

Just a matter of getting balanced dynamically upright on the front leg vs crashing into it.

Yep, you're right. I threw today for a while and it was insanely frustrating for me. Just couldn't figure out why it wasn't going any further or working better. Although I definitely have been restricting the shoulder like I said, so this felt less strenuous on the arm.

After assessing footage when I got home, I'm jamming on the plant and it's still tipping my shoulders similarly. I guess I have to play that inbetween feeling between jamming and over the top?

Swinging something heavy I did feel a connection all the way from my left shoulder blade to the object, so that's a new and good thing I guess. But I assume I should not at all try to use my left shoulder for extra leverage? Let myself plant and clear rather than pulling with the opposite shoulder, just like how in a FH I shouldn't pull back with the left shoulder to feel like I'm speeding up the rotation?

What kind of standstill distances should I expect when this is working? Right now normal 75% throws are 300/325ish for mids/fairways...should that be more like 350/380 when done right? Do you expect this is going to be small continual gains over many sessions once I get the balance, or do I have several more things wrong, or when it clicks will it just work significantly better?

 

[slowplastic]

I guess one leg throws is probably the best way to go about this, so that I already start on top of the hip? Then when I add any forward transfer I should feel like I'm on top of the hip the same way but the leg will get out front enough to stop from blowing past?

 

[sidewinder22]

In the simplest terms you just need to work on balance and stop trying to manipulate the disc. Use the weight of the disc and gravity, there is no low point in your swing as you raise the disc instead. One Leg Drill, Windmill Drill, Open to Closed Drill, Elephant Walk Drill. My friend shattered both his ankles and less than 6 months after surgery, barely starting to walk again, was able to throw Terns well over 400' in One Leg Drill. It was funny watching people's reaction playing as he was outdriving people running through the x-step. He recently starting doing a slow x-step and can get close to 500', and he still barely has any flexibility in his ankles.

To me jamming and over the top are the same thing, if your front leg gave out you would face plant or tip over onto front shoulder, instead of falling upright butt first/tipped back - I've ended up on my rear shoulder a few times when my plant foot slipped out, like a ski slipping out of turn vs going over top the ski.

In your x-step vids, you are still leaning back away from target behind your rear leg(head into rear wall) and not leading your butt forward in proper Hershyzer start position while still looking forward. You are picking up your front leg to stride it instead of swinging it hanging from the hip socket. There is no way you can recover from that Hershyzer position. You really need to turn much further back and look directly behind you/away from target, so butt is facing the target as you plant. I think you are trying to keep your rear foot too perpendicular or forward which is really restricting the rest of your body turning back. The advantage of hopping is that your rear foot moves forward airborne and you can land inside of it instead of having to move over top the rear leg from behind it, so you are always forward or inside the rear foot when airborne.

The left shoulder just needs to get out of the way. Now when I'm starting the forward swing my left arm comes in tight to the body and feels like I'm anchoring the left shoulder forward into the brace to allow the right shoulder and arm to really whip out away. So the left shoulder/arm are also out of the way for the forward swing.

IMO you really need to use a full preswing, and address the hit position. You shouldn't have a problem moving back and forth between using a full preswing or keeping the elbow bent and addressing the target. Get a sledgehammer and preswing forward, then you move forward around the hammer to the top of the backswing and effortlessly hammer it home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Awpyw2k3QM&t=1m40s

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for all the detail. This is a lot for me to go over for a bit. But I can feel how to land in the Hershyzer better, finally, from part 2. Feeling it more in the glutes than quads. I feel it like that in my FH, and now that I've felt it the other direction I can really tell how much I've been jamming up in comparison. I've been trying to shift from behind but kind of swing in front, rather than being on the hip I guess.

I think my backswing pace has been way too quick compared to my X-step, I can feel it slow down when I go through with something heavy. So just to make 100% sure, I should start a bit more butt first initially once my rear foot is down but still be looking at the target/lateral stride, and as I stride targetward I kind of let the weight of the backswing turn me way farther butt to target than I have been. Then I catch more dynamically onto the leg and hopefully the swing will happen right, with the hip clearing.

In the Hershyzer I feel like I'm very much over my entire left/back foot rather than weight on toes predominantly, is this right?

At minimum, I can feel the object's weight in the backswing turning me back in a consistent motion throughout my body, letting myself turn much further overall than trying to load the rear hip only.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sounds about right. If you mirror the One Leg Drill in the backswing, that's the kind of balance and control you want to have on the rear leg in the backswing on two legs, like a pitcher winding up really slow and balanced and controlled on rear leg to get into that butt first position and accelerate forward. When I first tried to mirror my FH, I was amazed at how much more balance/control/leverage I had on the right leg winding up, can basically stand all day on it and go in slow motion, then compared to the left leg winding up RHBH where I would quickly lose balance and can't stand very long on it, so would need to rush it. Just takes a lot of practice to learn balance and gravity on the opposite leg and swing direction. Perpetual swing drills and slow motion IMO immensely help accelerate the process and less elbow bending/more Feldberg battering ram.

Also note how pitching from a full wind up the stance starts open and winds back closed(open to closed drill) so there is more change of direction and momentum into the throw, vs pitching from the stretch position starting closed and typically can't generate the same velocity on the ball because you can't wind up as far back without losing balance. Your foot and head need to counter balance each other in the wind up, so if front foot goes up high and behind rear leg in backswing, head and spine tilts back/lower toward target to remain in dynamic upright balance - this might feel like a reverse pivot, but is not. When you start in full wind up/open stance your center of gravity is already balanced for the rear leg to move to left on it vs your center of gravity starting targetward of rear foot from straddle and has to move back away from target to get over rear leg in backswing.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok a couple positive directions...hip seems to be clearing better being on it more, and in variations of non X-step throws like one leg/standstill/open-closed I can feel the disc pivot around my index finger. I put in an open closed drill video and a standstill...I realize my setup for the open closed shot isn't quite how it should be, my right foot is too far behind the left foot. But if you go frame by frame you can see that disc pivot.

So two things...first, I guess I am not striding targetward enough or in a backwards way enough. I can see my shoulder plane is level initially until a certain point it gets jammed up. In the standstill shot you can see in the follow through my foot gets pulled to the right of the teepad indicating my weight should have been in that spot. So I guess I am going too left and that's why I jam up a bit. Also that may be why I just can't plant closed?

Secondly...should I be using my core a lot? I have not been, at all. If so, should I engage the core muscles consciously at a certain point...and if so when during the shot?

My standstill shots feel very efficient and that disc pivot feels good. But the X-step isn't helping all that much because some fundamental balance is wrong and the X-step amplifies it.

https://vimeo.com/286724116


I realize I'm tapdancing a bit on this, my foot lifts and moves targetward a bit early, etc. But I wanted to post to get feedback on why I can't land closed and if my stride goes too left of teepad.
https://vimeo.com/286724149

 

[sidewinder22]

Nothing wrong with your starting stance in Open to Closed except you need to actually turn your rear foot back. The backswing looks pretty good otherwise until you are about to plant.

In your standstill, your rear foot spins out. I think you are planting with your front knee too bent and flat footed/plantar extension/dorsiflexion. Need to first plant weight on toes with plantar flexion.

If you fall from dunking, you don't land with knees bent and flat feet. You should plant with knees extended(slightly flexed) and plantar flexion to break your fall with knees and ankles collapsing, but you should be resisting collapsing so your muscles are actually extending knees and plantar flexion to break that fall.

Note how your shoulders are rotating or not rotating. Your front shoulder basically stops in place behind the ankle and the rear shoulder is orbiting around the front shoulder. Your rear arm is out away from your body.

Note how my shoulders are rotating very centered and basically trading places over the front foot as front shoulder clears back behind braced front side.

See Understanding Weightshift and Tilted Spiral #2, you are standing up out of forward compression aka losing the top of the pressure cooker. Also note how your head is not stacked with the rest of the body, your spine is tilted back and head is down so you are in thoracic flexion and poor posture to squat to bunch of weight on shoulders. My spine is tilted forward and head is neutral with spine in thoracic extension and good posture to squat a bunch of weight on shoulders and core tight/engaged to brace for impact.

 

[slowplastic]

Thank you!! My foot is exactly one of the things that has been hindering me. From my worse balance previously, my right foot would catch on any uneven teepad during X-step, so I likely developed that pulling up feeling on the foot to keep the toes up. That kept the foot off the ground for too long when trying to plant and made it impossible to go toe-heel and stay closed. If I actually reach for the ground with my toes and an extended foot my balance is so much better after your post.

Your pictures exactly illustrate how I feel my shoulder has been jamming or restricted...it stays in place while I unload the arm rather than my body spinning around my spine. I guess I've been losing a multiplier there because my spine hasn't been rotating my shoulder to add to leverage? I obviously don't do that in RH baseball swing, that would be crazy, but I couldn't figure out how to do that RHBH.

Anyways, walking through indoors, letting my foot go toe-heel I can actually rotate upright with my shoulders swinging more like they should. I feel compact and like my shoulder isn't taking the throw. It's the most I've felt like the Jarvis throw looks, so that is hugely positive. I'll obviously have to see how it works with a disc, but this is definitely better conceptually.

That stupid foot position was preventing me front landing right and I doubt I would have figured it out.

 

[slowplastic]

It did feel tighter. But in the way that all I managed to do is optimize my incorrect form.

My balance is fundamentally wrong and I don't know what it is...if it's wrong before I start any aspect of the throw or if just my idea of how I should land on the plant/brace is wrong.

Either way, the current result is I can extend my foot to graze the ground with the toe of my shoe...but it doesn't matter because then I do the exact same thing with it spinning out before I land with any weight. Then with better upper body posture I still throw around my right shoulder the same way, so it looks very upright and together, and can get some really clean looking 300' standstill midranges that impress rec players but are in no way an increase in power.

Standstill, open/closed, even starting from Hershyzer style position all have the same result. I left towel snaps in this video to show that I fundamentally do that incorrect thing no matter what is in my hand.

Should I direct my upper spine/chin onto my foot? I think I direct my shoulder to my foot when looking from behind the teepad and that's why it gets stopped. I just don't know what the goal/feel should be to let myself swing my shoulders around my spine. Am I on the hip now somewhat correct, or am I jamming at all?

I really need to figure this out, all of the constant micro slips are putting a lot of strain on my middle finger joints.

https://vimeo.com/287163804

 

[sidewinder22]

That looks somewhat better, still not turning back enough in backswing though. Turn your head all the way back 180 degrees from target and plant. In Door Frame Drill really get your butt to lead, so your rear leg accelerates the butt to target before the head.

 

[slowplastic]

I can feel how clearing my hips correctly in the backswing will give me better leverage as I turn back, and continuing to turn back farther can let me plant more closed with toe-heel. Should my toes come down pretty firmly before I feel the "drop" to my heel? In faster/more intense throws will the toe-heel feel like the drop portion at once or do you always kind of feel the toes first?

What it seems like to me is I kind of have a good appearing clean throw visually, but essentially not the correct or minimal weight shift?

I have not tried this with a throw yet...but it may be beneficial for me to do the Shawn Clement style golf thought process in a throw. How he always thinks about the front side when you turn back and it feels like the weight is always on the front side, but the momentum of the backswing does lift the heel and then it comes back down. In mimicking a RH golf swing I can feel how to do the power move bracing the backswing even though I think about my weight over the lead leg, and then can come back down to swing. I can also feel this when I immediately switch to RHBH throwing motion. My heel lifts for a much smaller amount of time than when I freely stride in my one-step/standstill typical throws, but I feel much more compact like everything works together. I do feel like my head wants to tilt targetward during the braced backswing like this, how you exaggerate in the kick the ball video. I had not felt that before.

I can see how it helped Simon and Eagle to have thrown forever. I can feel these things so much easier in a RH golf motion since I first had a golf club in my hands at around 4 years old. Even though I never play I can still swing a club pretty smoothly.

 

[sidewinder22]

Always toes first(big toe), need to use your foot muscles to kind of grab the ground. Crush the can starts on toes, should be able to just stand/balance on toes before crushing the can with heel, basically reversed One Leg Drill in start of Crush the Can. In standstill I feel very Jack Nicklaus like in my backswing with the front heel coming up.