~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[Lumberjack504]

Nothing wrong with your starting stance in Open to Closed except you need to actually turn your rear foot back. The backswing looks pretty good otherwise until you are about to plant.

In your standstill, your rear foot spins out. I think you are planting with your front knee too bent and flat footed/plantar extension/dorsiflexion. Need to first plant weight on toes with plantar flexion.

If you fall from dunking, you don't land with knees bent and flat feet. You should plant with knees extended(slightly flexed) and plantar flexion to break your fall with knees and ankles collapsing, but you should be resisting collapsing so your muscles are actually extending knees and plantar flexion to break that fall.

Note how your shoulders are rotating or not rotating. Your front shoulder basically stops in place behind the ankle and the rear shoulder is orbiting around the front shoulder. Your rear arm is out away from your body.

Note how my shoulders are rotating very centered and basically trading places over the front foot as front shoulder clears back behind braced front side.

See Understanding Weightshift and Tilted Spiral #2, you are standing up out of forward compression aka losing the top of the pressure cooker. Also note how your head is not stacked with the rest of the body, your spine is tilted back and head is down so you are in thoracic flexion and poor posture to squat to bunch of weight on shoulders. My spine is tilted forward and head is neutral with spine in thoracic extension and good posture to squat a bunch of weight on shoulders and core tight/engaged to brace for impact.

Interesting that I see this forward spine tilt being mentioned, right around the same time I see Bradley Walker show up in a Facebook Disc Golf Form Check Group (which can be a cess-pool, like most things FB). Anyways, he's been dropping some nuggets. See attached screengrab

 

[Mocheez]

Interesting that I see this forward spine tilt being mentioned, right around the same time I see Bradley Walker show up in a Facebook Disc Golf Form Check Group (which can be a cess-pool, like most things FB). Anyways, he's been dropping some nuggets. See attached screengrab

He just joined DGCR and had a couple posts this morning.

 

[slowplastic]

^Yeah it's a problem for me. I'm feeling better and if/when this fixes it I'll post probably too much detail of what I did.

But I think my swing is too "centered" rather than over the front leg, so that's why I get jammed back. Also the hips go first and the shoulders get left behind, so I get tilted back like that.

Even a golf club swing, with both arms, looking centered on both feet, is over the front leg. If I anticipate being over the front leg then I don't get stuck behind with that tilt. As well, even though the disc golf swing is with only the lead arm, the back shoulder/arm have to swing through in the same balance as the back shoulder would in a two handed golf/baseball swing. Or else you get jammed up. Whole thing has to be in balance through the swing and at the end...and setting up has to be done anticipating where the swing will happen.

 

[slowplastic]

I've been focusing on balance, constant balance. I don't play golf anymore, but I still have an ok golf swing, and I have been trying to swing lefty to mimic my RHBH. Going back and forth between right/left golf swing has showed me how my rear shoulder was really going around my brace way left and I was getting all pulled out of rotation and weird. I feel like I'm getting to my front leg much better, and I've also been trying to be on my rear hip while turning back/loading and not spinning out.

My hand still drifts up and my upper spine/neck is still in poor posture. Is my head/upper spine bad before I even start anything? Or do I need to get my upper spine and front shoulder even more laterally forward to my front foot? I can see I still have a bit of a tilt and then my spine hunches. It's just not there yet.

With my load on my rear hip now, I feel so much more closed to the target than before even when I just align rear toes through front heel. I had some shots today that I felt like I stayed closed, like how GG gets that elbow forward while his body is still all braced on the front side...lasered a Teebird 350' pretty low and it hit the ground while it was just sweeping. I mean I can count on fairways to that range but this thing was moving pretty good compared to how it normally flies.

The rear hip load is feeling good though. There's a particular tunnel shot 270' pin I practice with a bit of a ceiling, I would often be 10' short with putters even with X-step. Over the last week or so I was reaching it stand still, and today I was 10-15' deep stand still. I also feel like I'm getting better leverage, my drivers don't want to flip. Which sucks for max D but is good for lacing fairways.

https://vimeo.com/289378567

 

[UhhNegative]

It still looks like you are doing that neck/shoulder scrunching thing. I think it's often more helpful to think of things in terms of feel instead of just video positions, because after all, all we have really have is feel. So with that disclaimer, here's my thoughts: it looks like you are trying to bring the disc in really close to your body with your shoulder. And it looks like the swing plane is a little high as well because of that shoulder action. If you are sitting here reading this, do a shrug with your shoulder, it pulls your entire arm higher. When you swing a hammer or something heavy, does your shoulder still do the same thing? I would wager it doesn't, or the swing would feel really weird. Seems like there would be way too much force on the shoulder when swinging something heavy if you shrugged like that. Let that bad boy swing really wide of your body. Just a thought, obviously I'm no swing model myself

I think you get that figured out and you will be BOMBING!

 

[slowplastic]

^Yeah when I swing a towel or something heavy inside I typically have some hyzer angle and my shoulders look fine. Go out to the field, same thing as before.

I have no doubt my balance has improved, but also no doubt that I'm still doing the same old thing with the shoulders scrunching unfortunately. So a little but necessary step forward has been made, the leap is still waiting.

I've been trying to get my body way over my front leg and doing some swings indoors, trying to mimic how GG gets that arm/elbow way out there. It feels way different and I am on top of my front leg way better. The only thing I'm afraid of is my arm swing then feels very linear forward toward the target before whipping out rather than leveraged and rotational. Different is good though? All the pro's still have a wider arm angle than me, spine tilted toward target, and shoulder farther forward. Got to overdo it to feel something different perhaps.

 

[UhhNegative]

^Yeah when I swing a towel or something heavy inside I typically have some hyzer angle and my shoulders look fine. Go out to the field, same thing as before.

I have no doubt my balance has improved, but also no doubt that I'm still doing the same old thing with the shoulders scrunching unfortunately. So a little but necessary step forward has been made, the leap is still waiting.

I've been trying to get my body way over my front leg and doing some swings indoors, trying to mimic how GG gets that arm/elbow way out there. It feels way different and I am on top of my front leg way better. The only thing I'm afraid of is my arm swing then feels very linear forward toward the target before whipping out rather than leveraged and rotational. Different is good though? All the pro's still have a wider arm angle than me, spine tilted toward target, and shoulder farther forward. Got to overdo it to feel something different perhaps.

I actually really like what BW has been saying recently about throwing the elbow out to the left. Like it feels like you are going to release left of target, but since you are holding on to the disc, it ends up ejecting towards the target. It's difficult to talk about how things feel.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that's how I was just trying to exaggerate that forward feel indoors. Definitely gets my arm way farther forward and it feels way different. I'm going to play around with it for sure, I know I need to change something fundamental with how my shoulders feel but I also know I can't get too "at the target"/linear with the disc pull or I won't have leverage. Not saying that he's meaning to be at the target at all. I just know I threw FH like that a few years ago before I learned to pull the disc through and there was a pretty significant difference in velocity.

 

[UhhNegative]

But I'm suggesting the feeling should be not too "at the target"/linear but rather to the left of the target. Put another way, the disc has to move left before/during ejection (towards left side of teepad) and if doesn't, the shoulders have opened too early.

If you were to just look at those three frames, the disc is moving well left of the intended target line. The only reason it actually stays on the target line is that he is holding on tight so it redirects at the last second, aka disc pivot, the hit, etc. I'm not sure if that makes sense or if it's related to your shoulder issue. Or maybe it's just a muscle activation thing. I don't think you are supposed to have your shoulder tense at all during the throw. The shoulder is part of what is being thrown, if that makes sense. All part of the shoulder/arm/disc unit being anchored by the core through the ground. It's all making so much more sense to me now... I think.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, still scrunching, head is going down while disc goes up and landing flat footed. Pretty sure if you do camera behind tee and compare to KJ you will see how much more stacked and forward athletic tilt he has and center of mass more toward left tee pad side/right over front foot, you are still behind your heel toward right tee pad side.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for the balance assessment SW, I feel it's better than before but not perfect. Good to know to commit further to those directions.

But I'm suggesting the feeling should be not too "at the target"/linear but rather to the left of the target. Put another way, the disc has to move left before/during ejection (towards left side of teepad) and if doesn't, the shoulders have opened too early.

That sequence of pictures is great. Really shows how outward the disc goes at that point with the body staying quite closed. I'm going to experiment with some things, especially involving getting farther forward on the plant so I can hopefully get to that arm swing. From going through the movements I think my knee will move forward sooner with the disc trying these things, compared to what I've been doing.

As far as the linear thing, well I have definitely been throwing at the target rather than having an arc out to the side. But being worried about too becoming too linear as to what I was just talking about in the last few posts, was kind of more moving the disc forward and snapping it "at" the target rather than leveraging it through the target. Say the difference between cracking a towel "at" something vs. hammering through a board. Just all these things feel weird without actually committing to throwing a disc so I won't know until I start shanking shots everywhere and find out what works.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok got some throws in today. Tried to really get over to my front leg, get my shoulder forward, and extend my swing. Some things regress a little because of trying something so different like little positions, lifting my front leg and such, but oh well. I got some good standstill throws in though. I noticed after some throws I step too left, and my head dips down...I got some throws where I strode right down the line and tried to keep my chin up so I could rotate my shoulders under my head and when I managed to do that it felt way tighter. So I'm aware of those problems, it was just so much at once.

First throw posted I tried to do the super long swing...keep my forearm back so it feels closed at the pocket and it swings out/forward. It really felt like my arm/hand were just longer and to the target, but I guess I still got leverage. I notice I didn't get whipped around to follow through as fast as usual, but I also might be blocked a little from stepping a bit too left. On this throw it felt like my head was braced against my front leg, and my shoulder/arm would swing forward really far while being closed. This was a mid that went fairly low and got stopped against a tree 315' away so that's good for a standstill for me.

https://vimeo.com/289584850

This throw I tried to mimic Gurthie's front shoulder and arm. The main difference is it felt like my front shoulder instead was leveraged against my front foot and like my swing was under/through me. The disc didn't go as far, I think 300ish, but it felt different/compact. So I'm not sure what I should aim for with the feel over/against the brace?

https://vimeo.com/289585065

I did notice I was way more prone to worm burners 150-200' away from me. Likely from being used to throwing with my hand above my elbow before the hit, and now I will have to learn to get my hand on the right plane if I get to my front leg correctly.

---Shift + <> for frame by frame

 

[sidewinder22]

You aren't ever setting up balanced on the front leg. You are back on the rear leg and really flat footed/static setting up. Move your weight back and forth and settle your feet and swing in rhythm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-KVWfUkQ3s#t=3m14s

 

[slowplastic]

Ok, I don't know how to describe what I was doing before but from that drill...

Arm sway back and forth, body/feet offset that way, I feel heels lift in backswing/forward swing and I pump forward and back. I feel like I pump just as the object is approaching the bottom of the swing, then I pump it through the low point and it accelerates up.

When I change the plane more parallel to the ground as in a disc swing plane, I feel that easy glide forward toward elbow forward position, just as the arc toward the low point is aided by gravity. As I approach this position I feel my mass catch on my front leg and I can just power the object around this corner it feels like, analogous to the low point of the swing before.

It feels like I'm way more on my front leg only, and do not push the same off my rear foot...it kind of counters more then drives. I think this makes sense with how I see you move in the one leg throws, and how you can get basically the same power from that starting position.

Should I video these motions or does it sound right?

 

[sidewinder22]

Way more on front leg sounds good.

 

[slowplastic]

Nice. The best I can describe is before I would get to the front leg just before the hit point, thinking I needed that recoil/counter hip smash around that moment to blast through the disc.

Now with this feeling, I am on the front leg as the elbow approaches that power pocket and it feels like I have counterweight ready to pump it through the entire outward swing, rather than needing it to be timed for an instant.

The weird thing is I feel like I can now just swing like this while standing on my leg. I don't have to do some big routine and think of getting it all set up in sequence. I can just feel the leverage. If this actually works with a disc, then I think I'll understand how the right pec drill works in an obvious way for some people, whereas others like me can try it over 4 years and never get how it's supposed to happen.

 

[slowplastic]

I know, another post, but this is crazy. This is a huge concept/feel click. I know it before even throwing or doing anything, because when I go back to my old methods it feels so terrible in comparison.

I haven't even been swinging a bat with this tempo! I've been close to it, closer than my disc golf BH, but I was definitely firing the upper body too soon. This feels FAST with a bat, and a bat is way heavier than a disc. Fact.

I've been utilizing this with my FH, it feels the same, but I didn't realize I wasn't even swinging a bat the same way. It took this to make me actually understand the core of this feeling so I can translate it between sports and directions. If I start hitting home runs I'm going to be as excited as I would be for a 500' throw, too bad the softball season is over. All of my learning of rotational hitting mechanics has really helped out with disc golf too, and all of your help with my disc golf throw has translated over...I've seen my consistency, comfort/muscle soreness, and line drive connections constantly improve. But still haven't been a home run hitter and I want that too.

 

[sidewinder22]

Lol, yeah I wish I figured this out when I played baseball. I now know exactly why I wasn't a long hitter with the bat, but had a hell of an "arm".

 

[slowplastic]

Worked out well after getting used to it and being able to focus on my balance again. Threw pretty much only standstills, wind was swirly 10ish MPH but I had enough spin to really make discs handle it pretty well.

I was striding too far to the left of the teepad, I noticed it on a behind view video, the 2nd video is when I tried to correct it a bit...still drift a couple inches left. When I corrected this more it felt like I was starting very offset/closed, and like I was almost stepping toward the basket/target behind me. And the disc felt like it was going from max reachback toward elbow forward very very straight. I wasn't thinking about any arcs or anything, but in this behind view it looks like the disc is swinging out wide in that hot at the moment wide rail...wasn't trying to do anything and didn't feel different on my hand.

The side view is probably the best form I've had on video, it was after the back view video, trying to stride very in line to target in balance. The shot after it was a standstill Comet ~320' and 6-8' high at most . Other highlights were a Leo and FD in the 350-360' range standstill 10-12' high, and pretty much all standstill fairways in the 330-350' zone, compared to before in the 310-325' area.

So I definitely think this is right direction...got to focus on striding targetward and not sideways, so I can land toe-heel. And I feel like I'm getting my rear arm in but it's still not there yet.

Does my description of disc from backswing to elbow forward position feeling very long/linear make sense?

https://vimeo.com/289768012

https://vimeo.com/289768155

 

[sidewinder22]

You still aren't getting balanced forward enough/centered on the front leg or rear leg in backswing. Your front knee bends and gets in the way of your backswing and has to go around it and your front foot is coming off the ground too early. You have no diagonal shift in the backswing, but kind of do in the forward swing although more stepping out, so things are not being mirrored.

Note how my front knee extends out of the way and nose over toes, so I'm over top the disc and my front shoulder is stacked right over top the foot as well with foot still on ground as disc passes over, it's not until the disc is past the foot that it comes up off the ground/pulled off the ground from the swing.

You are also swinging back and forth too fast and too short. Slow it down and elongate the swing. Exaggerate the backswing so that your front foot goes almost all the way back to the rear foot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo&t=7m8s