~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

Definitely looking better. Need some more diagonal width of stance & shift I think. Interested to know what happens when you try the battering ram with both hands, specially the rear arm move in the backswing and if it forces you to change your stance/posture/balance and lead arm?

 

[Lumberjack504]

Definitely looking better. Need some more diagonal width of stance & shift I think. Interested to know what happens when you try the battering ram with both hands, specially the rear arm move in the backswing and if it forces you to change your stance/posture/balance and lead arm?

Awesome video! I'm loving this new diagonal shift idea, I think it's going to be really accessible to a ton of players.

I love how the stance is closed and the momentum vector is on an oblique to the target, then it shifts to dead straight down the pipe of the target line right around the hit.

Also, when I watch this, I can't help but be reminded of Gary Sheffield, one of my favorite and probably one of the purest hitters I can remember. Maybe because he started his stance closed but looks like he swings/plants pretty neutral. I tried to emulate his stance/swing when I played playground ball (not to much avail, but I did hit a lot of left center doubles).

Talk about weight shift though, his rear leg is completely airborne at contact. Epic bat speed/acceleration

 

[sidewinder22]

Awesome video! I'm loving this new diagonal shift idea, I think it's going to be really accessible to a ton of players.

I love how the stance is closed and the momentum vector is on an oblique to the target, then it shifts to dead straight down the pipe of the target line right around the hit.

Also, when I watch this, I can't help but be reminded of Gary Sheffield, one of my favorite and probably one of the purest hitters I can remember. Maybe because he started his stance closed but looks like he swings/plants pretty neutral. I tried to emulate his stance/swing when I played playground ball (not to much avail, but I did hit a lot of left center doubles).

Talk about weight shift though, his rear leg is completely airborne at contact. Epic bat speed/acceleration

Yes! Holy Crap! I never really watched Sheffield before, all I see is KJ Nybo in that swing! :thmbup:

It's technically not a closed stance it's open, but diagonal so your weight still shifts from behind you. I had a little conversation with Shawn Clement about this before and was shown the light.

Who else but Bradley Walker commented on his Diagonal Video at like the same time! :thmbup:

As fate would have it, Bradley and I unknowingly crossed paths 1 week ago when he commented on my Kick the Can video! This has been a long strange few days, but very fruitful in the end even if it was a bit testy. I really think combing all our concepts is a winner!

 

[slowplastic]

Ok this definitely got me to feel some new things and it's so simple, but I also have some questions too below.

Going through as you did, it felt very natural to keep turning my stance back farther in order to get a straight release of the ram...in my case a baseball bat held horizontally. I ended up very closed, moreso than when I was throwing, but in basically the same position that you are in.

The biggest feeling differences are the rear arm path and my head/chin balance. I felt the rear arm path different first, but after I realized the difference with my head it has to be stated in relation to that.

So my head now feels more tilted forward over my plant foot, so I have all this room available underneath it. Before I felt like my shoulder pivoted under my head and I had to try to keep it up and out of the way...now I feel like the head is forward and I have a swing pocket available for the ram and arms. I think I finally understand what you mean by swinging through your centre.

Because of the ram, my left elbow wanted to follow through under my chin. So in a swing I felt it was easy to keep forward so much, and my rear arm wanted to continue through the swing and in front of the torso rather than behind my side or counter it. It still seems to impact/recoil, but it wants to continue forward. I think it most naturally feels like what Ulibarri does, and very similar to McBeth but without how he gets the arm way back first. And least like GG. Basically it just feels like my back elbow wants to be under my chin and I no longer have the urge to Schusterick it way behind my shoulder blade.

So a couple questions about the video first:
-around the 7 minute mark you start opening the front foot up relative to the target/our perspective...is there any reason?
-also are the motions after this point in the video just to show the rear leg naturally countering rather than swinging "in front"? That's what I'm getting from it, I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

I'll ask a couple more questions on the diagonal stance in the next post so I don't have a ridiculous wall of text.

 

[slowplastic]

Note you just posted that SC video above and I haven't watched it yet, but I'll continue with my thought train.

So I am completely on board with this diagonal stance situation, or rather "straight and neutral" from the thrower's perspective and "closed to target" from the viewer's perspective.

The elite throwers I pretty much always see carry their momentum closed, like Simon, Paul, Eagle, Wiggins.

So in this video linked at 1:24 we get to watch Sexton, Simon, and Ulibarri throw full power drives. Simon runs from back right to front left to throw straight, this all fits. Nate and Paul both throw very in line, Paul more closed than Nate...but is this because they are both legit touring pro power but not elite power? I also posted this just to show the Ulibarri rear arm path I talked about in the last post as feeling natural after the battering ram drill.

https://youtu.be/YF7R1u0QZHM?t=84

Now in this video at 26:09 we get to watch McBeth and Seppo throw controlled golf shots 400+. Paul clearly uses the angles we've been talking about, and I think is the best low golf line player out there, without doubt top 3. Now Seppo has elite power, but he is one of the only guys I can think of in that modern category who strides basically in line with his throw. Why does this work for him? As well, if you slow down his throws his disc gets that old "skim the face" thing I'm so familiar with. Is this because he's not giving himself as much room to swing so the disc has to rise up a bit?

https://youtu.be/giqVr-_xAKI?t=1569

As well, is the super closed angle that I naturally found in the battering ram drill a bit exaggerated to what I would use with a disc?

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok this definitely got me to feel some new things and it's so simple, but I also have some questions too below.

Going through as you did, it felt very natural to keep turning my stance back farther in order to get a straight release of the ram...in my case a baseball bat held horizontally. I ended up very closed, moreso than when I was throwing, but in basically the same position that you are in.

The biggest feeling differences are the rear arm path and my head/chin balance. I felt the rear arm path different first, but after I realized the difference with my head it has to be stated in relation to that.

So my head now feels more tilted forward over my plant foot, so I have all this room available underneath it. Before I felt like my shoulder pivoted under my head and I had to try to keep it up and out of the way...now I feel like the head is forward and I have a swing pocket available for the ram and arms. I think I finally understand what you mean by swinging through your centre.

Because of the ram, my left elbow wanted to follow through under my chin. So in a swing I felt it was easy to keep forward so much, and my rear arm wanted to continue through the swing and in front of the torso rather than behind my side or counter it. It still seems to impact/recoil, but it wants to continue forward. I think it most naturally feels like what Ulibarri does, and very similar to McBeth but without how he gets the arm way back first. And least like GG. Basically it just feels like my back elbow wants to be under my chin and I no longer have the urge to Schusterick it way behind my shoulder blade.

So a couple questions about the video first:
-around the 7 minute mark you start opening the front foot up relative to the target/our perspective...is there any reason?
-also are the motions after this point in the video just to show the rear leg naturally countering rather than swinging "in front"? That's what I'm getting from it, I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

I'll ask a couple more questions on the diagonal stance in the next post so I don't have a ridiculous wall of text.

Yes! It's as simple as tossing the sledgehammer!

In the Feldy arm slot with two hand battering ram grip really releases the whole arm more together as a unit. The big pendulum just feels super efficient and consistent with less moving parts.

In the Avery arm slot I really feel the ram sliding the elbow forward and down, but there is still a pendulum, just shallower. I do throw my distance anhyzer this way. I rarely throw anhyzers because of my forehand. I prefer to throw hyzerflips for distance, just more natural and balanced and effortless, less strain on the back. Tossing the Sledgehammer Avery style you have to throw distance anhyzer and lean balance back and throw upward to toss the hammer over your head almost! So Avery's like an overhand backhand and Feldy is underhand backhand.

GG rips the battering ram in half with his arms in equal and opposite motion. Total counter. Hulk Smash!

7 min... I'm bracing forward for the recoil of the hit against the wall back into my arm and body.

 

[billyjacko]

I think Seppo pretty clearly shifts his weight on an angle.

Also, Calvin Hymber who's in the .1% distance club.

And more Lizotte, because we just need that in our lives.

 

[slowplastic]

I think Seppo pretty clearly shifts his weight on an angle.

You're right it is a bit closed/behind him, but not nearly as much as Simon. Simon would have been like corner to corner on that shot I bet.

 

[sidewinder22]

Note you just posted that SC video above and I haven't watched it yet, but I'll continue with my thought train.

So I am completely on board with this diagonal stance situation, or rather "straight and neutral" from the thrower's perspective and "closed to target" from the viewer's perspective.

The elite throwers I pretty much always see carry their momentum closed, like Simon, Paul, Eagle, Wiggins.

So in this video linked at 1:24 we get to watch Sexton, Simon, and Ulibarri throw full power drives. Simon runs from back right to front left to throw straight, this all fits. Nate and Paul both throw very in line, Paul more closed than Nate...but is this because they are both legit touring pro power but not elite power? I also posted this just to show the Ulibarri rear arm path I talked about in the last post as feeling natural after the battering ram drill.

https://youtu.be/YF7R1u0QZHM?t=84

Now in this video at 26:09 we get to watch McBeth and Seppo throw controlled golf shots 400+. Paul clearly uses the angles we've been talking about, and I think is the best low golf line player out there, without doubt top 3. Now Seppo has elite power, but he is one of the only guys I can think of in that modern category who strides basically in line with his throw. Why does this work for him? As well, if you slow down his throws his disc gets that old "skim the face" thing I'm so familiar with. Is this because he's not giving himself as much room to swing so the disc has to rise up a bit?

https://youtu.be/giqVr-_xAKI?t=1569

As well, is the super closed angle that I naturally found in the battering ram drill a bit exaggerated to what I would use with a disc?

Straight Swing doesn't exist. You either Draw or Fade to a Straight Flight/Trajectory to Apex.

 

[slowplastic]

I just video'd myself swinging through this with an object...and it looks like the best form I've had. It doesn't look as closed or offset in a crazy way as it feels to me, so it's just the difference weirding me out. My back arm is way by my side and not doing dumb things. My head is way over my plant foot and balanced. Definitely, definitely best it's looked.

I tried the Shawn Clement thing where he hangs his hip neutral to see what his foot positions are naturally. I'd roughly guess 18 degrees for my left foot and 9 degrees for my right from being strapped in those positions on a snowboard for 20 years :|. So that's probably why they're different...

I'm feeling a little bit of the bottom inside of my right knee say something to me. Not pain, not soreness...just awareness that I threw a lot of shots this week and have been going through different balance practices. Is there anything in particular I should be aware of like making sure to lift toes in the swings? With my balance being so much more centered I notice my foot stays closed when I just go through easy shots if I don't tell myself to lift my toes.

GG rips the battering ram in half with his arms in equal and opposite motion. Total counter. Hulk Smash!

Yeah that's what I figured. I'm guessing this isn't worth messing with unless I got sick of only throwing 550 at some point in the future.

 

[billyjacko]

I thought this applies to what we're talking about here, so I wanted to add it. Don't know how to embed this link. https://v.redd.it/3y73w74fvnm11

 

[sidewinder22]

I just video'd myself swinging through this with an object...and it looks like the best form I've had. It doesn't look as closed or offset in a crazy way as it feels to me, so it's just the difference weirding me out. My back arm is way by my side and not doing dumb things. My head is way over my plant foot and balanced. Definitely, definitely best it's looked.

I tried the Shawn Clement thing where he hangs his hip neutral to see what his foot positions are naturally. I'd roughly guess 18 degrees for my left foot and 9 degrees for my right from being strapped in those positions on a snowboard for 20 years :|. So that's probably why they're different...

I'm feeling a little bit of the bottom inside of my right knee say something to me. Not pain, not soreness...just awareness that I threw a lot of shots this week and have been going through different balance practices. Is there anything in particular I should be aware of like making sure to lift toes in the swings? With my balance being so much more centered I notice my foot stays closed when I just go through easy shots if I don't tell myself to lift my toes.



Yeah that's what I figured. I'm guessing this isn't worth messing with unless I got sick of only throwing 550 at some point in the future.

Yep, different and weird are good as long as it's pain free and effortless. That's why I didn't mention specific foot angles, it's going to depend on your body and swing dynamics. This is why you need to shuffle your feet and weight around back and forth to settle grounded naturally into the swing. Not flat footed. People always setup so static and flat footed on the rear foot! You need to setup dynamically from the front leg!

My front foot feels bolted into the ground. I don't lift the toes or anything. I just maintain balance and finish in upright position like still crushing the can underneath me in finish. The momentum of the swing will automatically pull or pivot my foot effortlessly as needed and the pivot automatically switches between heel pivot or toe pivot or mid foot pivot depending on the dynamics of the shot and balance.

This is working from the hit back, from the finish position. Note how I setup my swing from One Leg and I address the hit and swing on one leg, and then work back and finish in the same exactly position I started in the address:

 

[sidewinder22]

I thought this applies to what we're talking about here, so I wanted to add it. Don't know how to embed this link. https://v.redd.it/3y73w74fvnm11

That is exactly how I explain the release in Stop Hugging Yourself.

Also you physically can't Hug Yourself or Round with the Battering Ram!

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[charmees]

With this diagonal movement in mind, would the runup be more like on the right or left?

On the left, the runup is still towards the target, but the last steps makes a diagonal step.
On the right, the whole runup is slightly angled.

Red arrow displays weight movement and green the line of play.

 

[sidewinder22]

With this diagonal movement in mind, would the runup be more like on the right or left?

On the left, the runup is still towards the target, but the last steps makes a diagonal step.
On the right, the whole runup is slightly angled.

Red arrow displays weight movement and green the line of play.

The Left One that Arcs - Kick and Crush the Can like Lizotte. It's a subtle and compact move but sudden acceleration move just before the plant. The front foot and your weight slides accelerates diagonally into the plant so the rear leg torque still goes behind the front leg with any strain on the body.

Watch how Voigt's CoG(purple line below) zig zags or spirals around the Swing Center/Front Leg, changing directions massively. The Disc follows the CoG and gets twirled:

Note how he skates diagonally to the puck, front foot suddenly slides ahead of rear foot before the hit and then he skates off in arc through the the hit and finishes in complete upright balance. His rear leg kicks in behind the diagonal front leg from the internal torque between the diagonal feet.

 

[UhhNegative]

It's not so much the weight shifting diagonally so much as the support for the weight shifting diagonally? Like your center of your mass is still moving targetward (except anhyzer shots) throughout the x-step but since your front foot is staggered it shifts diagonally a little bit?

 

[sidewinder22]

It's not so much the weight shifting diagonally so much as the support for the weight shifting diagonally? Like your center of your mass is still moving targetward (except anhyzer shots) throughout the x-step but since your front foot is staggered it shifts diagonally a little bit?

Kinda, the support moves more diagonal or zig zag than your CoM/G, so your support can give the upper body a real good twirl or tilted spiral on the braced front leg.

 

[UhhNegative]

Kinda, the support moves more diagonal than your CoM/G, so your support can give the upper body a real good twirl or tilted spiral on the braced front leg.

Ok, cool that's what I thought. Because otherwise it would be pretty damn hard to aim. Just didn't want people to think their torso should be shifting significantly leftward either.

 

[Lumberjack504]

You weren't lying about Sheffield and Nybo!