~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

Ok, cool that's what I thought. Because otherwise it would be pretty damn hard to aim. Just didn't want people to think their torso should be shifting significantly leftward either.

Yeah, you need to zig diagonally into the plant and zag out on the braced front leg.

 

[deyo7]

With this diagonal movement in mind, would the runup be more like on the right or left?

On the left, the runup is still towards the target, but the last steps makes a diagonal step.
On the right, the whole runup is slightly angled.

Red arrow displays weight movement and green the line of play.

The Left One that Arcs - Kick and Crush the Can like Lizotte. It's a subtle and compact move but sudden acceleration move just before the plant. The front foot and your weight slides accelerates diagonally into the plant so the rear leg torque still goes behind the front leg with any strain on the body.

To clarify though, overall stride direction is still target-ward in that you aren't just taking a big step to the left of the teepad with your final front foot plant. Seems like the pros plant foot barely lands past their first right footed step (some more than others and depending on type of shot - gifs on post 143: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132140&page=15 Or see the Sepo above).

The key is more shifting weight back onto the left foot during the backswing and hershyzer (simultaneous), setting up the angle, and then to catch oneself onto the front right foot/plant in that same angular stance direction. Right?

The drawing is imperfect.

 

[deyo7]

Also, Calvin Hymber who's in the .1% distance club.

This is like the Hershyzer.

This is just another lightbulb moment: Watch Calvin's head position and relate it to frontside boardslide. THIS is how you herhyzer. So much to work on.

Sorry for so many posts - I'll get to work now - this just seemed more important this morning.

 

[sidewinder22]

To clarify though, overall stride direction is still target-ward in that you aren't just taking a big step to the left of the teepad with your final front foot plant. Seems like the pros plant foot barely lands past their first right footed step (some more than others and depending on type of shot - gifs on post 143: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132140&page=15 Or see the Sepo above).

The key is more shifting weight back onto the left foot during the backswing and hershyzer (simultaneous), setting up the angle, and then to catch oneself onto the front right foot/plant in that same angular stance direction. Right?

The drawing is imperfect.

Exactly. The drawing is only imperfect because straight doesn't exist. To throw "straight" you either have to aim the release left(anhyzer or hyzer-flip/draw) or aim the release right(pure hyzer/fade).

 

[slowplastic]

This has been great discussion. I just want to clarify too...

So if starting standstill, the weight shift and sway is along your feet stance since there isn't any momentum coming into that position from a previous X-step? So essentially all movement is diagonal to the apex/aim.

But in an X-step you begin toward the apex/aim of your throw, and work out a bit left to open up the swing and plant/move diagonal, but there is still is a bit of momentum targetward from the initial steps? Essentially it feels like a building arc in a natural way, and you're just trying to get an open swing and letting yourself plant/move closed but landing very neutral/balanced feeling from your own perspective?

Edit: Yes this seems right

 

[sidewinder22]

This has been great discussion. I just want to clarify too...

So if starting standstill, the weight shift and sway is along your feet stance since there isn't any momentum coming into that position from a previous X-step? So essentially all movement is diagonal to the apex/aim.

But in an X-step you begin toward the apex/aim of your throw, and work out a bit left to open up the swing and plant/move diagonal, but there is still is a bit of momentum targetward from the initial steps? Essentially it feels like a building arc in a natural way, and you're just trying to get an open swing and letting yourself plant/move closed but landing very neutral/balanced feeling from your own perspective?

Edit: Yes this seems right

The "sway" is diagonally back and forth inside your ankles, internal torque. So in the backswing the front foot pushes back diagonally inside rear ankle in backswing and then the rear foot pushes diagonal inside front ankle back forward. So those vectors are criss crossed back and forth and fluidly swiveled from the hips and butt.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

My thought, just to clarify...

I'm not "pushing" off the back foot at all in an x-step. The only time I'm really "pushing", is if I can't get a down-shift due to footing and I then the "push" is on par (hehe) with a ball golf swing.

I love the fact that this conversation has exploded!

I think if you go back to a one leg drill or something along those lines, you can feel what has to happen if you want anything to leverage the disc with... remember that we have to have something to leverage the hammer forward and it can't be the back foot!

I honestly think it's one of the weirdest movements in sports - because we have to create leverage with the momentum of the system: down shift, posture, counter balance - and timed to perfection. I see a huge correlation between the perpetual motion drill and the battering ram.

 

[sidewinder22]

My thought, just to clarify...

I'm not "pushing" off the back foot at all in an x-step. The only time I'm really "pushing", is if I can't get a down-shift due to footing and I then the "push" is on par (hehe) with a ball golf swing.

I love the fact that this conversation has exploded!

I think if you go back to a one leg drill or something along those lines, you can feel what has to happen if you want anything to leverage the disc with... remember that we have to have something to leverage the hammer forward and it can't be the back foot!

I honestly think it's one of the weirdest movements in sports - because we have to create leverage with the momentum of the system: down shift, posture, counter balance - and timed to perfection. I see a huge correlation between the perpetual motion drill and the battering ram.

Good to see you chiming back in! :thmbup:

If you are truly running in the x-step, then you can't accelerate faster off the rear foot, so there is no or little "push" or doesn't "feel" like a push, but you do still have to maintain forward leverage from it into the plant.

If you are walking or standstill you have to push off the rear foot to accelerate everything.

I used to think the same way as you, that it's so weird compared to other sports, but it's really all the same IMO, you just have to think about it differently, one hand swing backhand. My FH is the exact mirror of my BH, just watch how I so easily transition back and forth from FH to BH in Don't Spill the Beverage!

 

[slowplastic]

The "sway" is diagonally back and forth inside your ankles, internal torque. So in the backswing the front foot pushes back diagonally inside rear ankle in backswing and then the rear foot pushes diagonal inside front ankle back forward. So those vectors are criss crossed back and forth and fluidly swiveled from the hips and butt.

I unfortunately can't watch that full golf vid right now...but I want to make sure we're communicating the right things too.

Within this quote of you, is the "diagonal" you are talking about just a VERY shallow crossing as in the push off of one foot's toe/instep, landing on the other heel, weight catch, then it will swing back from that foot's toes to the other foot's heel? As in that Clement video where the instrument draws out the weight distribution across both feet during the golf swing and shows the catch and spiral? And this is all within the stance?

Whereas in other situations we are talking about setting up the body neutral relative to itself, but diagonal relative to the trajectory of release? Of course the shallow diagonal within the stance/feet is still happening.

 

[sidewinder22]

I unfortunately can't watch that full golf vid right now...but I want to make sure we're communicating the right things too.

Within this quote of you, is the "diagonal" you are talking about just a VERY shallow crossing as in the push off of one foot's toe/instep, landing on the other heel, weight catch, then it will swing back from that foot's toes to the other foot's heel? As in that Clement video where the instrument draws out the weight distribution across both feet during the golf swing and shows the catch and spiral? And this is all within the stance?

Whereas in other situations we are talking about setting up the body neutral relative to itself, but diagonal relative to the trajectory of release? Of course the shallow diagonal within the stance/feet is still happening.

I think you got it, does this make sense:

 

[slowplastic]

Yes I believe this is all falling into place. The important thing is feel...and when I tried to do that arc/zigzag/Simon thing it felt WAY more natural than trying to do a straight ladder/hallway step along the final diagonal angle and hope the disc releases behind me. Indoors with an object anyways. I've had a good player who has 450' tell me his secret is he steps "out", but that simplification didn't make sense until now that I can feel how my COM stays balanced along with that stride. You can't simply step out but keep your COM moving along the same initial path and not expect to get crossed up.

So essentially the first red/right foot placement to left foot/yellow step brings COM along trajectory line, then final plant right/red step is diagonal to trajectory, weight leaves rear toes lands plant heel, disc in forward swing is directed along orange vector initially so forearm is closed of trajectory, and then disc releases along trajectory?

That gif you posted of Chara in the slap shot contest makes sense with the arc...he skates on a line that contains both the puck and the net essentially...keeping in mine his hit zone is off to his left and he is 7' tall with skates on. Then his final plant foot "stride", which has a glide factor, is diagonal to his initial trajectory as well as the target line and he stays balanced on/within this leg. He then releases his stick/shot along his continually balanced momentum, and the puck is obliterated behind him/closed toward the net.

Just FYI I initially was thinking all strides/momentum goes along the diagonal, so I'm very happy this discussion is happening. It makes sense now with the image you marked up showing the zigzag COM and disc path before the hit.

Edit: I am just not a fan of using the same term diagonal to refer to both the subtle weight shift/catch/rocking within the stance, as well as the setup orientation relative to intended trajectory.

 

[slowplastic]

This is just another lightbulb moment: Watch Calvin's head position and relate it to frontside boardslide. THIS is how you herhyzer. So much to work on.

Sorry for so many posts - I'll get to work now - this just seemed more important this morning.

YES THANK YOU!!!! I love disc golf but snowboarding is #1 to me. Balance the chin/head over the front foot! I've never been able to switch front board, and my front boards honestly...aren't perfect. I can get them 90 degrees, but switch I can't do them...seriously the most awkward trick. "Basic trick" but a switch front board/switch back lipslide is SO respected and scary. Balance the head over the front foot and it's so easy to swing the board past 90. Head over front foot even if you want to slide under the back foot. Feels like it will be great.

At 1:00 you can see Halldor has his head over the front foot, even though he catches the back lipslide by the back binding and keeps pressure under back leg. He's front boarded/back lipped some scary features over the past few years. Front board pretzel 270 out at 1:30, head over front foot, gets to 90 and still has all the torque to spin opposite.

Even if you aren't into snowboarding, watch this whole thing. Part of the year last year. Halldor is a lunatic and the Simon of snowboarding...been doing it since so young and is a maniac, just wants to entertain and doesn't care.



Torstein has my favourite style in all of snowboarding...I always wondered how he could balance his hunchback looking front board/back lips. Well this crazy elbow kink pulls him to the outside of the rail, but his head is balanced dynamically over the front foot so he looks way tweaked out but he's actually still over the foot through the feature!

https://youtu.be/bUa_gsLE7V8?t=185

 

[deyo7]

YES THANK YOU!!!! I love disc golf but snowboarding is #1 to me. Balance the chin/head over the front foot! I've never been able to switch front board, and my front boards honestly...aren't perfect. I can get them 90 degrees, but switch I can't do them...seriously the most awkward trick. "Basic trick" but a switch front board/switch back lipslide is SO respected and scary. Balance the head over the front foot and it's so easy to swing the board past 90. Head over front foot even if you want to slide under the back foot. Feels like it will be great.

At 1:00 you can see Halldor has his head over the front foot, even though he catches the back lipslide by the back binding and keeps pressure under back leg. He's front boarded/back lipped some scary features over the past few years. Front board pretzel 270 out at 1:30, head over front foot, gets to 90 and still has all the torque to spin opposite.

Even if you aren't into snowboarding, watch this whole thing. Part of the year last year. Halldor is a lunatic and the Simon of snowboarding...been doing it since so young and is a maniac, just wants to entertain and doesn't care.



Torstein has my favourite style in all of snowboarding...I always wondered how he could balance his hunchback looking front board/back lips. Well this crazy elbow kink pulls him to the outside of the rail, but his head is balanced dynamically over the front foot so he looks way tweaked out but he's actually still over the foot through the feature!

https://youtu.be/bUa_gsLE7V8?t=185

That Halldor dude is NUTS! I lived in Denver from 2004 to 2007. Skied about every winter weekend and always wanted to try snowboarding. Just tough to go for it when I knew I could either be on my arce all day or shred on skis. Hindsight, I wish I'd taken a few weekends to learn. But it's all fun....

And notice also at the 1:00ish minute mark that he's looking targetward, so as not to fall on his backside, just as Rob Drydek (sp) video showed. That may already be obvious to you, just making sure it was caught. Calvin also keeps his eyes targetward and only turns his head back when natural to do so during backswing.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yes I believe this is all falling into place. The important thing is feel...and when I tried to do that arc/zigzag/Simon thing it felt WAY more natural than trying to do a straight ladder/hallway step along the final diagonal angle and hope the disc releases behind me. Indoors with an object anyways. I've had a good player who has 450' tell me his secret is he steps "out", but that simplification didn't make sense until now that I can feel how my COM stays balanced along with that stride. You can't simply step out but keep your COM moving along the same initial path and not expect to get crossed up.

So essentially the first red/right foot placement to left foot/yellow step brings COM along trajectory line, then final plant right/red step is diagonal to trajectory, weight leaves rear toes lands plant heel, disc in forward swing is directed along orange vector initially so forearm is closed of trajectory, and then disc releases along trajectory?

That gif you posted of Chara in the slap shot contest makes sense with the arc...he skates on a line that contains both the puck and the net essentially...keeping in mine his hit zone is off to his left and he is 7' tall with skates on. Then his final plant foot "stride", which has a glide factor, is diagonal to his initial trajectory as well as the target line and he stays balanced on/within this leg. He then releases his stick/shot along his continually balanced momentum, and the puck is obliterated behind him/closed toward the net.

Just FYI I initially was thinking all strides/momentum goes along the diagonal, so I'm very happy this discussion is happening. It makes sense now with the image you marked up showing the zigzag COM and disc path before the hit.

Edit: I am just not a fan of using the same term diagonal to refer to both the subtle weight shift/catch/rocking within the stance, as well as the setup orientation relative to intended trajectory.

Exactly on all that! Maybe the weightshift should be termed tangent instead of diagonal? So stance is diagonal and weightshift is tangent internally to the stance back and forth inside the feet.

 

[slowplastic]

Exactly on all that! Maybe the weightshift should be termed tangent instead of diagonal? So stance is diagonal and weightshift is tangent internally to the stance back and forth inside the feet.

I don't like tangent...tangent is a line that intersects an arc at only one point.

I like tangent as explaining to people why if you round your throw the disc will pop out whenever your arm moves too fast. Like this link that BJ posted earlier, I don't know if I can multiquote across pages but this one:

https://v.redd.it/3y73w74fvnm11

It reminds me of a little high school physics demo my teacher, who was an ex-NHL enforcer for a few games and an awesome dude, showed us. Basically if you have a weight on a string and spin it around beside you as a vertical circle, the point of the most force on the string as at the bottom of the arc, when you have the constant acceleration from spinning the object + gravity's constant acceleration summing. The string will break at this point, and the object will shoot out tangent to the circle, which is directly forwards.

So that's why I show people to "pull straight" as the newbie simplification, and then the snap happens at the end so the disc doesn't get accelerated until that point and comes out tangent to the snap, which in those simple cases is forward at the target.

I'll think about it a bit too for what term/discussion to use.

 

[slowplastic]

That Halldor dude is NUTS! I lived in Denver from 2004 to 2007. Skied about every winter weekend and always wanted to try snowboarding. Just tough to go for it when I knew I could either be on my arce all day or shred on skis. Hindsight, I wish I'd taken a few weekends to learn. But it's all fun....

I switched when I was like 10, at the time you couldn't ride skiis switch, they weren't meant for rails, and they were full camber and skinny so they sucked in powder. Snowboarding just made sense because it was built for all of those things. I still think one snowboard is more versatile at every situation than one pair of skiis, and I love riding sideways, but ski tech has definitely improved and skiis have some inherent speed/stability advantages, so no reason to switch at this point.

But when it comes down to it I love how a snowboard feels in powder, and I love the honesty of tricks on a snowboard...if you're off balance or body is weird there's no fixing a trick. Skiers have extra leverage and stuff to fix bad takeoffs, to kind of "grab" rails to redirect spin instead of being flat and needing to be perfect from ollie to landing the trick, and they can backslap jumps/cliffs and "land it". Obviously good skiers do things perfect and go FAST, but I see so many slopestyle runs with landed tricks that were clearly off balance, and the same balance factor would have put you on your butt on a snowboard.

And notice also at the 1:00ish minute mark that he's looking targetward, so as not to fall on his backside, just as Rob Drydek (sp) video showed. That may already be obvious to you, just making sure it was caught. Calvin also keeps his eyes targetward and only turns his head back when natural to do so during backswing.

Yeah exactly...keep shoulders down the rail and chin over front foot. This is the difference between Hershyzer position in a front board and a throw...in a throw your stance/feet keep going down the momentum line you want and you use the hips to turn the shoulders back. In a front board you keep your momentum/shoulders down the rail and turn the hips under you to get the board as close to 90 as possible while being balanced on top. The goal or intention is opposite kind of.

 

[sidewinder22]

YES THANK YOU!!!! I love disc golf but snowboarding is #1 to me. Balance the chin/head over the front foot! I've never been able to switch front board, and my front boards honestly...aren't perfect. I can get them 90 degrees, but switch I can't do them...seriously the most awkward trick. "Basic trick" but a switch front board/switch back lipslide is SO respected and scary. Balance the head over the front foot and it's so easy to swing the board past 90. Head over front foot even if you want to slide under the back foot. Feels like it will be great.

At 1:00 you can see Halldor has his head over the front foot, even though he catches the back lipslide by the back binding and keeps pressure under back leg. He's front boarded/back lipped some scary features over the past few years. Front board pretzel 270 out at 1:30, head over front foot, gets to 90 and still has all the torque to spin opposite.

Even if you aren't into snowboarding, watch this whole thing. Part of the year last year. Halldor is a lunatic and the Simon of snowboarding...been doing it since so young and is a maniac, just wants to entertain and doesn't care.

That Halldor dude is NUTS! I lived in Denver from 2004 to 2007. Skied about every winter weekend and always wanted to try snowboarding. Just tough to go for it when I knew I could either be on my arce all day or shred on skis. Hindsight, I wish I'd taken a few weekends to learn. But it's all fun....

And notice also at the 1:00ish minute mark that he's looking targetward, so as not to fall on his backside, just as Rob Drydek (sp) video showed. That may already be obvious to you, just making sure it was caught. Calvin also keeps his eyes targetward and only turns his head back when natural to do so during backswing.

You knuckle draggers and your lingo! I keed, I keed! That Halldor dude sure is something else and does remind me a lot of Lizotte, so gifted athletically with balance and reflex like a cat. I could only dream of doing like one of those tricks! So jealous! I was never really into skating or skiing or snowboarding, so hard for me to balance. I tore my ACL skiing in HS, then I tried some snowboarding, holy crap my butt hurt from falling so much, and I really hating getting on and off the chair lifts with a snowboard, I would just dive off the chair.

When I watch that frontside boardslide and all those other moves where the butt leads and head is forward all I see is McBeth in the Hershyzer.

SP I bet the snowboard is why you are so flat footed. Both your feet are always attached to the board.

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't like tangent...tangent is a line that intersects an arc at only one point.

I like tangent as explaining to people why if you round your throw the disc will pop out whenever your arm moves too fast. Like this link that BJ posted earlier, I don't know if I can multiquote across pages but this one:

https://v.redd.it/3y73w74fvnm11

It reminds me of a little high school physics demo my teacher, who was an ex-NHL enforcer for a few games and an awesome dude, showed us. Basically if you have a weight on a string and spin it around beside you as a vertical circle, the point of the most force on the string as at the bottom of the arc, when you have the constant acceleration from spinning the object + gravity's constant acceleration summing. The string will break at this point, and the object will shoot out tangent to the circle, which is directly forwards.

So that's why I show people to "pull straight" as the newbie simplification, and then the snap happens at the end so the disc doesn't get accelerated until that point and comes out tangent to the snap, which in those simple cases is forward at the target.

I'll think about it a bit too for what term/discussion to use.

Hmmm.... so if you give your center of gravity a vector straight out your chest, it is rotational. So the diagonal stance is tangent to the CoG rotation. Sound more correct?

 

[sidewinder22]

This is almost exactly what I'm trying to describe:

 

[slowplastic]

Hmmm.... so if you give your center of gravity a vector straight out your chest, it is rotational. So the diagonal stance is tangent to the CoG rotation. Sound more correct?

Haha I don't think this is a route to go down my brain will explode. You're then assigning a vector out of something that is a "point", and using the end of the vector to trace a curve as this point "rotates" so I guess this point would have its own axis system...and this point is also moving in space. Then at one instant along this arc that is constantly moving in space you would assign a line tangent to it...

I mean I don't know if all of that is correct. I only know enough math to know this is too complicated a way to explain something.

Also when I actually feel this for real maybe I'll have a bit better understanding too.