~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

Haha I don't think this is a route to go down my brain will explode. You're then assigning a vector out of something that is a "point", and using the end of the vector to trace a curve as this point "rotates" so I guess this point would have its own axis system...and this point is also moving in space. Then at one instant along this arc that is constantly moving in space you would assign a line tangent to it...

I mean I don't know if all of that is correct. I only know enough math to know this is too complicated a way to explain something.

Also when I actually feel this for real maybe I'll have a bit better understanding too.

Lol, yes complicated.

I really love this visual of SC's CoG, I feel my weight moving just like his and that little twirl/spiral of the CoG = boom!

 

[slowplastic]

Threw some shots...it's not all the way there but my rear arm is coming through now. I am not getting my head over my front foot, so I'm not grasping something. When I do the motions/drills inside at moderate speed I can keep my head over my foot. But it seems when I go to throw so I have some speed I'm not dynamically balanced the way I should be. The farther back my head is from being over my foot, the more prone I am to griplock way right since I'm way back of where I should be braced in space.

I'm not sure how much of this is a factor of not getting my head where it should be, and how much is my over-closing or stepping too far across my body with the final step. It could mostly be that factor as I feel how I need to be set up and I feel balanced doing the battering ram drill. I think I'm thinking "step out/diagonal" when really I should just be stepping laterally and that happens to be diagonal?

I had lots of shots that would have a minor OAT and go right. So it's not all lining up right. When it did go pretty right I was throwing real nice and easy and I felt putting like 200' on putters that would go 250-270'. My rear foot is releasing up off the ground and my back arm is coming through. But my body is getting across in the way of the shot, you can see in the X-step video the disc raises like crazy and it's because my final step is WAY too left. I had one or two X-step shots that felt very tight, one was a Teebird 6' high that went 350' and had a good sound to it.

I also may not be turning/backswinging far enough?

None of these shots were particularly great, I wanted to represent a lot of the issues I'm having. It's one of those things where it feels really close so there's lots of potential, but it's just slightly off so it makes things go crazy.

When it "clicks" do you think it will be a build up from there, or an instantaneous gain?

As for the snowboard flat footed comment...yeah I don't doubt it. It's not just being strapped in flat, but also since you only have one edge at a time to trust you do all these weird micro manipulations to torque one foot or the other to partially have the board twisted so the other edge is ready or off the ground in weird terrain and stuff...lots of times you're doing things outside of your stance and body width because you know the flex of the board will fight you and you use that for your balance through the ground. Being loose and also fine with your COM drifting outside your feet on occasion is not at all like throwing tight and efficiently. I mean some tricks you initiate by having your COM in really weird places.

https://vimeo.com/290394101

https://vimeo.com/290394519

https://vimeo.com/290394618

 

[slowplastic]

I've taken some practice swings indoors for balance and I think the course of action is to aim for the plant spot with my toes rather than my whole foot...toe-heel on the plant and that will keep my foot closer to me. It feels natural to step where I have been but if I aim there with my toes then it'll be closer to me by several inches and I can stay over the foot.

Secondly I should keep my backswing wide and not try to set my forearm on that "closed" line...let it get pulled/loaded back to that closed angle form the target from the weight of the disc and resist it a little.

 

[sidewinder22]

I agree you aren't really completing the backswing. I think your upper arm and elbow angles are collapsing too much/scrunched into that V with your elbow dropping. Like you are really trying to bend the elbow instead of letting it happen more. Need to keep your shoulder tensioned more to keep the upper arm angle wide and smooth through the transition.

Your practice swings have the disc all over the place and your elbow is still noticeably bent at the end, chicken wing finish.

Watch how McBeth and I do our first address almost exactly the same barely bending the elbow so the slow swing is taut and wide. Watch how my practice swings get longer, and more athletic and everything on plane coming through and the elbow bends more.

First shot went about 600', sign says elevation is -36', so if you do the 1' drop = 3' formula that still close to 500' on a controlled effortless hyzer with OB left and right and a lumpy carpet teepad.

 

[slowplastic]

Yep you're right, trying to feel the snap/spin or something. I tried that really wide arm address without consciously bending the arm, but how I'd get an object to feel leverage. When I do it with a disc in hand and just go through it slowly so I don't go through the whole shot I don't really feel it leverage like something longer/heavier, and it feels like it doesn't get as far forward to right pec as it's "supposed to"...as well my elbow doesn't feel like it bends much. But on video from behind, looks like a disc golf swing plane.

Now that my shoulders aren't getting all jammed up I'll see how that works out with it.

Heh it's pretty crazy how I literally need every single step. There can't be that many left...

 

[sidewinder22]

Have you tried actually tossing a hammer?

 

[slowplastic]

I haven't, next time I play at one of the unpopulated courses I'll give that a try. I'm definitely feeling a wide upper arm connection that I haven't before though, it feels strange but looks ok on video. Strange because I don't feel like I will snap the disc or anything, but that's likely my problem, thinking I need all my levers to add up in an instant. The disc will end up spinning.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yep. I don't try to spin the disc at all. I keep the disc weight loaded back as long as possible and then sling forward it like the hammer head coming around to pound a nail after leading the handle forward.

 

[rhatton1]

This is a fascinating thread and shows me where I was going wrong with the hershyzer drills and to an extent the door frame drills, neither of which ever quite felt right. I tried to take the weight shift drop target line and all that did was swing everything too open, the hershyer especially never quite drilled the action I was looking for. That little redirection to diagonal through the drop makes all the sense in the world though, Voights sudden redirection into it suddenly makes sense. I'm going to relook at hershyzer drills again now as they never quite worked for me before (aggravated my already terrible tendency to open that front shoulder early from dropping in line rather than diagonal)

Just doing it here in the kitchen I can feel that load happen and the huge potential power in it. Goddamn, DGCR has come alive in the last couple of days!!!


Jees, I've just stood up and done the door frame drill and nearly pulled the doorframe out on my newbuild...

 

[sidewinder22]

I haven't, next time I play at one of the unpopulated courses I'll give that a try. I'm definitely feeling a wide upper arm connection that I haven't before though, it feels strange but looks ok on video. Strange because I don't feel like I will snap the disc or anything, but that's likely my problem, thinking I need all my levers to add up in an instant. The disc will end up spinning.

Try swinging the hammer in super slow motion. Feel how your muscles need to remain taut to keep the hammer head on plane. Then try the cup.

 

[deyo7]

Edit: I am just not a fan of using the same term diagonal to refer to both the subtle weight shift/catch/rocking within the stance, as well as the setup orientation relative to intended trajectory.

Exactly on all that! Maybe the weightshift should be termed tangent instead of diagonal? So stance is diagonal and weightshift is tangent internally to the stance back and forth inside the feet.

Hmmm.... so if you give your center of gravity a vector straight out your chest, it is rotational. So the diagonal stance is tangent to the CoG rotation. Sound more correct?

Haha I don't think this is a route to go down my brain will explode. You're then assigning a vector out of something that is a "point", and using the end of the vector to trace a curve as this point "rotates" so I guess this point would have its own axis system...and this point is also moving in space. Then at one instant along this arc that is constantly moving in space you would assign a line tangent to it...

I mean I don't know if all of that is correct. I only know enough math to know this is too complicated a way to explain something.

Yeah, I can't keep up with all of that, lol.

BTW. I REALLY like the comments you added to my drawing. Attached for reference. So your weight and CoG shifts back to rear ankle and then rotates back inside ankle (all on inside of posture) and then at plant, weight and CoG shifts to behind front ankle and then rotates around inside ankle (all inside of posture). And that's the Voigt zig zag. All correct? I totally feel it and I think this is incredibly helpful to know exactly what we are supposed to feel. The feel, feels real.

 

[deyo7]

I switched when I was like 10, at the time you couldn't ride skiis switch, they weren't meant for rails, and they were full camber and skinny so they sucked in powder. Snowboarding just made sense because it was built for all of those things. I still think one snowboard is more versatile at every situation than one pair of skiis, and I love riding sideways, but ski tech has definitely improved and skiis have some inherent speed/stability advantages, so no reason to switch at this point.

But when it comes down to it I love how a snowboard feels in powder, and I love the honesty of tricks on a snowboard...if you're off balance or body is weird there's no fixing a trick. Skiers have extra leverage and stuff to fix bad takeoffs, to kind of "grab" rails to redirect spin instead of being flat and needing to be perfect from ollie to landing the trick, and they can backslap jumps/cliffs and "land it". Obviously good skiers do things perfect and go FAST, but I see so many slopestyle runs with landed tricks that were clearly off balance, and the same balance factor would have put you on your butt on a snowboard.

Yeah, I know those skis well. My dad had those skinny skis and mine weren't a whole lot wider. Even when the parabolic skis first came out they were hardly shaped or wide in comparison to what came after. I wasn't riding rails or anything like that anyway - I mean, I'm from Iowa - I'm a competent skier for an Iowan I did get after it on the bowls though and love fresh powder.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, I can't keep up with all of that, lol.

BTW. I REALLY like the comments you added to my drawing. Attached for reference. So your weight and CoG shifts back to rear ankle and then rotates back inside ankle (all on inside of posture) and then at plant, weight and CoG shifts to behind front ankle and then rotates around inside ankle (all inside of posture). And that's the Voigt zig zag. All correct? I totally feel it and I think this is incredibly helpful to know exactly what we are supposed to feel. The feel, feels real.

Exactly!

Interesting note, when my rear foot leaves the ground it goes forward diagonally right down the trajectory line or feels like it. The release of the internal torque from leaving the ground just takes it there.

 

[deyo7]

Exactly!

Interesting note, when my rear foot leaves the ground it goes forward diagonally right down the trajectory line or feels like it. The release of the internal torque from leaving the ground just takes it there.

Yeah, that makes sense. And I also feel the rubber band effect of rear foot instep bouncing back toward the front foot better too.

 

[sidewinder22]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17IYtSMtfzQ&t=1m33s

 

[deyo7]

Yeah, I can't keep up with all of that, lol.

BTW. I REALLY like the comments you added to my drawing. Attached for reference. So your weight and CoG shifts back to rear ankle and then rotates back inside ankle (all on inside of posture) and then at plant, weight and CoG shifts to behind front ankle and then rotates around inside ankle (all inside of posture). And that's the Voigt zig zag. All correct? I totally feel it and I think this is incredibly helpful to know exactly what we are supposed to feel. The feel, feels real.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17IYtSMtfzQ&t=1m33s

Nice. Another lightbulb moment. I'm doing standstill diagonal stance with FH and it's exactly the same with CoG&weight shift, just flipped. Now I know correct FH posture. I'm now closed and foot everts down trajectory line naturally. And naturally in Clement log hitting posture. Sorry, I really do know this isn't my thread. It's just been so enlightening!

 

[slowplastic]

In that Brinster markup and shot, he has a wide arm angle that is aimed right of the target...he's throwing a low power upshot and maintaining tension through the arm so the forearm never really swings in much. But on his power shots he maintains the same feel, but this results in the forearm swinging closed or "pointing left of aim"?

If that is correct then that is a great example of how taut to keep the arm.

As for the weight shift between the feet rocking back and forth crossing over from heel to toe then toe to heel, within the diagonal stance...how about intersecting weight shift? So you have an intersecting weight shift back and forth within the diagonal stance to the intended shot apex?

 

[sidewinder22]

In that Brinster markup and shot, he has a wide arm angle that is aimed right of the target...he's throwing a low power upshot and maintaining tension through the arm so the forearm never really swings in much. But on his power shots he maintains the same feel, but this results in the forearm swinging closed or "pointing left of aim"?

If that is correct then that is a great example of how taut to keep the arm.

As for the weight shift between the feet rocking back and forth crossing over from heel to toe then toe to heel, within the diagonal stance...how about intersecting weight shift? So you have an intersecting weight shift back and forth within the diagonal stance to the intended shot apex?

Pretty much. There's so much to like about his upshot and everything. Disc goes wide, narrow - right through his CoG, then extends wide with shoulder closed to the aim, he zig zags his CoG right down to the release point in the follow through, such a great follow through.

I think I need a picture. Turbo Encabulator might give you some more insight with the pool cue stick on the tilted spiral and the two-step reciprocating dinglearm into diagonal stance now that you understand this better.

 

[sidewinder22]

The eye is right in his CoG, this is crazy!

 

[Lumberjack504]

The eye is right in his CoG, this is crazy!

Illuminati confirmed?