~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

Pretty much. There's so much to like about his upshot and everything. Disc goes wide, narrow - right through his CoG, then extends wide with shoulder closed to the aim, he zig zags his CoG right down to the release point in the follow through, such a great follow through.

I think I need a picture. Turbo Encabulator might give you some more insight with the pool cue stick on the tilted spiral and the two-step reciprocating dinglearm into diagonal stance now that you understand this better.

Yeah I think I'm feeling it better and better. Your markup and description of where your COG is in an "athletic position" in another thread really helped too along with revisiting the ride the bull. I can feel my feet like they are suctioned to the ground with leverage from toe to heel when I transition between feet. And instead of trying to land butt first/spine tilt I realize the same thing is accomplished with that toe to heel transfer angled within the stance like that SC video with the weight transfer measurements/graph. It feels like the foot I just left is still stuck to the ground even though it isn't...I think it's just how it feels to transfer the weight without spinning out at all.

I feel like I can start with a parallel stance and imagine doing that Brinster upshot, just rock back and forth between my feet until my stance closes to what feels right as in the battering ram drill, then set up and pull my arm straight through with so much leverage through the ground. This feels much smaller of a transfer distance between my feet than the back to front I have been doing with the rocking/loose-ish pre-swings before, but also like I have way more leverage into the ground. I think this is a better direction conceptually.

 

[slowplastic]

I kind of have no idea...lost a lot of power today and I'm either closer than before but just a bit off so it's messed up, or went the wrong direction.

So this first throw is within the first several that I tried with keeping the arm wide or straight compared to bending the elbow. It looks pretty good I thought for arm plane. However all throws that were like this I lost like 30-50' of my expected distances, it was very strange like I wasn't getting anything to the disc. Am I pre-opening here? Or what is going on with the loss?

https://vimeo.com/290781207

I then started to really feel that toe-heel rocking feeling between the feet, trying to feel the catch to recoil/launch weight shift thing. I felt like I would do this by landing on my heel a bit differently. But my back foot could feel a variety of things...should I aim for as much leverage as possible as long as possible off the back foot, or is it fine to evert/slide behind me as I leave it rather than after?

Anyways, when doing this I started to get a little more power again but I was getting releases that turned over out of my hand a lot. It started to feel natural to try to do that pronation/"key turn" or thumb push attempt, even in practice swings feeling to pronate through. It's weird, I don't feel like I pronate and take the disc off plane, but I was definitely aware of doing some sort of wrist motion. It kept the discs on line though instead of wobbling. These two throws are examples of doing that, although again I wasn't throwing as far as before, only 300' mids and 325' fairways from standstill. So loss of power.

Also you can see my lead hip kind of go to the side in the side view...I guess my balance is off?

https://vimeo.com/290781453

https://vimeo.com/290781697

I just don't know...I'm seeing things that look like better cues like faster hip rotation and rear foot leaving the ground rather than dragging. But just so many inconsistent throws.

 

[slowplastic]

Thinking about it a little more now, I think part of the problem is I was being really lateral with my move along the stance. Trying to really feel all of these different things in the plant/catch as well as through the hit with that bit of pronation. I think I lost the deeper load "from behind" where I feel like my rear hip continues to the target and I keep turning back farther and farther.

I know if I don't concentrate on turning back like that in my FH I lose a lot of automatic velocity. So I bet that was one contributor. But still there were some different things going on with the swing feel, that's for sure.

 

[UhhNegative]

I still think you might be losing a lot through your shoulder/elbow positioning and movement. You get the disc out nice and wide at release, but it doesn't look natural coming into the power pocket. If we take the ball on the string analogy, it almost looks to me like the upper arm/shoulder is losing that "tautness" and collapsing as you bring the disc in towards your body, and then it launches back out and the string is finally taut again right at, or a little before the extension, like you are almost catching the release instead of slowing building that acceleration and keeping the "string" (upper arm) tight throughout the whole swing. In my mind, there's no way you could swing like you do with a hammer and not feel an extreme yank at the end. Feldberg being an example of a swing where his levers don't collapse much at all but he is accelerating his string throughout the swing. Does this make any sense? Like to me, this looks like a collapsed upper arm

 

[UhhNegative]

Canonical McBeth comparison

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I definitely get what you're saying...I bet I had a step more tight but not all the way there so I likely lost some whip or something that I had timed from disconnecting a similar way all the time.

I bet when I feel it happen right it'll be easy to reproduce or want to get to that position every time. I hope.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your tempo is way too fast. Slow down and swing longer, not faster. Like the sledgehammer. Your elbow is beating your shoulder in front of the hip.

 

[Mocheez]

Your posture has always seemed off to me. Your chest seems like it caves in with your upper spine rounded. Get your chest to stick out beneath your shoulders and swing through with a really high elbow... to the point that it feels awkward.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your posture has always seemed off to me. Your chest seems like it caves in with your upper spine rounded. Get your chest to stick out beneath your shoulders and swing through with a really high elbow... to the point that it feels awkward.

Athletic squat position

 

[slowplastic]

Your posture has always seemed off to me. Your chest seems like it caves in with your upper spine rounded. Get your chest to stick out beneath your shoulders and swing through with a really high elbow... to the point that it feels awkward.

Thank you, you're right!

I always thought it was something in follow through from getting crossed up/in my own way planting, so my upper spine wasn't supported and would shoot forward hunched.

But I'm in poor posture feeling like it would give me a good pocket over the disc. Nope. I don't do it RH baseball swing, and I can feel the difference in setup to LH swing/RHBH disc golf.

These are the types of basics that can't be overlooked no matter how long someone has thrown. Poor setup from the start = impossible to fix later.

Your tempo is way too fast. Slow down and swing longer, not faster. Like the sledgehammer. Your elbow is beating your shoulder in front of the hip.

I went through some more battering rams, and for me the one that seems to really help, LH baseball swing. I can feel how to keep the bat head back and where it wants to arc in front of me. Feels like elbow getting over plant foot, but I have to let it get there and keep the bat head back for as long as possible. This one works for me better than almost anything I think, just because I know exactly how it should feel the other direction, how much late snap and how effortless it should feel with no angles tugging at me.

I was definitely getting my arm weird yesterday with the experimenting, and have never had it right. And I don't have the switch direction of "good" to compare it to with a disc.

For the first time when one handed swinging an object, I can feel like I keep it back, have constant input to it, and can snap it forward in an arc rather than having it just happen at some point. Now I don't know if this is going to be a bit different since this is equated to a swing where I hold the object and snap it through compared to throw it.

By have input to the object I don't mean "manipulate" it, but I mean like how during a baseball swing you're constantly calculating ball position and can make those adjustments, even though overall your body is doing all the work.

Until now my arm has felt more like an elastic that gets shot forward with the disc on the end. The disc had weight at points definitely, but I didn't have control.

 

[slowplastic]

This is great. I was so frustrated yesterday with the results but I knew something crucial was just a bit off and ruining everything. I couldn't imagine hitting a ball without leveraging the bat, so same thing.

When I swing an object one handed lefty, like RH baseball, I naturally offset the right amount to diagonal. No thinking at all, it just happens. Shows how natural the positions are when you know the balance and the intended outcome.

But a disc in the left hand instead of a lever...feels so bad/weird heh.

For future reference, if you guys are ever teaching someone who has snowboarded forever but doesn't know how to stand up right on land..."athletic stance" feels like you're taking off to do a method. Some toe edge pressure but with the intention of carrying straight, and going to pop evenly.

https://youtu.be/_hxLS2ErMiY?t=292

 

[UhhNegative]

Athletic squat position

The thing that used to confuse me about this advice is that when you squat, you want all the weight to be going through your heels, which isn't good for weight shifting. Good for a static lift like a squat, but not for a dynamic movement like a throw. In fact, that's probably the most common error I see in people who are squatting in the gym (that, and hardly anybody gets proper depth). You should be able to wiggle your toes in the air during your squat if your weight is on your heels. It's probably why I have trouble getting on my toes because I was pretty heavy into lifting/bodybuilding a few years back and its just ingrained in me. Never really was good at more dynamic movements.

But in a throw it's more weight on the balls of the foot but body still in a squatty position, right?

 

[slowplastic]

I'm really missing something, I just feel like I don't understand what makes a good/pro throw.

I feel like I'm trying everything with my arm but I can't get it to do what it should do. In the last video I am swinging a stick like a baseball bat and then throw a disc. It's clear to me that my lefty swing/RHBH isn't as nice looking...my elbow is way out there. So maybe I need to just do that over and over until it feels natural switch hitting?

Also what I've noticed is if I swing a lever RHBH I will keep it below my hand/elbow and it looks fine. I have leverage and it feels good snapping it through. But I lead with the bottom edge of my hand. As soon as I swing a disc it feels like I'm backhand slapping and my arm raises up during throws...maybe this angle change has an influence? Also with a disc in my hand I just can't feel the same leverage as with a stick. When I try to focus on the "opposite edge of the disc" I end up just spinning the disc like a frisbee with zero velocity. Does my hand become the lever at the wrist and the disc will snap out? Or should I feel the disc somehow as the lever?

The first video is concentrated on a Hershyzer type drop to the plant. Threw some high speed drivers standstill like 6' high 350ish with that weight shift, which is alright but not a jump in velocity really.

Second video I tried what feels like to me a ridiculously low swing plane and like a T-rex arm...it doesn't look like it but it feels like it. The shot before I had this same feel and a Leo went really slowly 325' even though I felt like the arm was short/not extended. This throw went only like 300' with a fairway so it wasn't a good throw either, but the swing plane "looks better".

Is my arm making it so that no matter what I do with my body it doesn't get to the disc? Or is my balance still fundamentally off? Or should my hips be open forward more before I throw...like the throw should happen even later still? I just really don't understand what is costing me so much distance.

https://vimeo.com/291008321

https://vimeo.com/291008102

https://vimeo.com/291007393

 

[sidewinder22]

Shoulder leads elbow forward of hip. Use your shoulder to battering ram the door down.

 

[sidewinder22]

The thing that used to confuse me about this advice is that when you squat, you want all the weight to be going through your heels, which isn't good for weight shifting. Good for a static lift like a squat, but not for a dynamic movement like a throw. In fact, that's probably the most common error I see in people who are squatting in the gym (that, and hardly anybody gets proper depth). You should be able to wiggle your toes in the air during your squat if your weight is on your heels. It's probably why I have trouble getting on my toes because I was pretty heavy into lifting/bodybuilding a few years back and its just ingrained in me. Never really was good at more dynamic movements.

But in a throw it's more weight on the balls of the foot but body still in a squatty position, right?

Getting ready to squat a bunch of weight falling on you. Athletic ready position.

You may want to read this about squatting depth:
https://www.elitefts.com/education/...c-development-how-weve-all-been-fcking-it-up/

 

[UhhNegative]

Getting ready to squat a bunch of weight falling on you. Athletic ready position.

You may want to read this about squatting depth:
https://www.elitefts.com/education/...c-development-how-weve-all-been-fcking-it-up/

Eh, honestly not a fan of that article and the next one it links to. He could have saved himself a lot of time and just said "different people have different ROM" and "different people have different goals" which is all I got out of it. That doesn't excuse some people from squatting with far less ROM than is reasonable and a lot of weight when they are actually more flexible and could get more out of the movement by moving through a larger ROM with less weight. Or maybe they don't care about their joint mobility and are training for some other reason, I really don't care. He doesn't even define what he means by "athletic development" which is pretty broad and useless. Are we talking about strength, range of motion, hypertrophy, something else? It's nonsense. That being said, I actually don't squat much anymore, or at least not heavy anymore. I think I had a minor labral tear in my right hip and some impingement from not being as good about mobility work as I should have been, sitting at the computer for too long, and likely asymmetrical movement from my pidgeon toed left side. It took a couple years to heal but fortunately I have not had any pain since. But, legs were never my problem area. I could squat 3 sets a week and they still grew like crazy. I had to focus the most on my upper body for my goals at the time. Now I just lift for my health: mental and physical. It's been a long time since I thought about a lot of this. I competed back in 2012 in a couple natural bodybuilding shows. Then I took a few years off of lifting.

Sorry, this is really off-topic.

SP, I'd personally like to see video of you dingle arming a hammer around.

 

[slowplastic]

SP, I'd personally like to see video of you dingle arming a hammer around.

My thought process was "grumble grumble I can dingle arm a hammer"...yeah I can. I filmed it, elephant walk, all good. Go to swing it on stomach/chest high plane, examine footage...collapsed upper arm, shoulder up. Yup.

Ok so with SW's marked up image of shoulder past hip I managed to feel how to get my shoulder forward more, it is probably like a 2-3" difference so far but it feels better. In the battering ram I could feel it on the Feldy angle but not very much on the higher angles before. With the shoulder forward I can leverage the battering ram way better at high arm slots.

So here's the hammer with the shoulder more forward. It feels different than leverage I get on a baseball bat with 2 hands, it feels slower/more drawn out but like there will be momentum. It's impossible to get to this same spot with 2 hands like a golf club or baseball bat, so it's a different feeling than anything I'd done. But I definitely don't feel T-rex arms like on some throws today when trying to keep the arm down.

It looks much better and is definitely not what I have been doing.

Problems?

https://vimeo.com/291042089

https://vimeo.com/291042089^^^^^^DELETE THE ^^^^^ FOR BIGGER VIDEO

 

[RandyC]

I would like to see you maybe on a course and really really focus on hitting a certain line. Adjust your body angle so it feels like you are going to hit the certain line. Then swing at it without thinking move A or B and trust your swing. I mean you have probably done more than enough drills so just to get you out of that drilling mindset. My experience is that drills only get you so far, you need to have the right focus so your brain is able to activate the proper chain reaction. I am not sure if you can even do it without the right focus. This is the reason I am a big fan of the hammer drill, feel the weight and sling it forward effortlessly. It also gives you instant feedback, if you swing it without restrains and the hammer goes to the right, adjust body angle and try again.

 

[slowplastic]

I would like to see you maybe on a course and really really focus on hitting a certain line. Adjust your body angle so it feels like you are going to hit the certain line. Then swing at it without thinking move A or B and trust your swing. I mean you have probably done more than enough drills so just to get you out of that drilling mindset. My experience is that drills only get you so far, you need to have the right focus so your brain is able to activate the proper chain reaction. I am not sure if you can even do it without the right focus. This is the reason I am a big fan of the hammer drill, feel the weight and sling it forward effortlessly. It also gives you instant feedback, if you swing it without restrains and the hammer goes to the right, adjust body angle and try again.

Yeah I know what you mean. I have practice/change mode, and play/concentrate mode. With luck the practice mode turns into concentrate or brain off mode. But during rounds you're right, just let it all take over and don't think about anything but the line.

When I realize there's problems then I have to figure out what it is. I like throwing/muscle memory over practicing drills or things like that, I just use them to find a feeling. That hammer one on my last post definitely got me to feel a different shoulder/arm position than I had so hopefully that's right? If so then once I feel it with a disc I agree, it's throw and don't think. Maybe bring that hammer to an unpopulated field too.

 

[RandyC]

Yeah I know what you mean. I have practice/change mode, and play/concentrate mode. With luck the practice mode turns into concentrate or brain off mode. But during rounds you're right, just let it all take over and don't think about anything but the line.

When I realize there's problems then I have to figure out what it is. I like throwing/muscle memory over practicing drills or things like that, I just use them to find a feeling. That hammer one on my last post definitely got me to feel a different shoulder/arm position than I had so hopefully that's right? If so then once I feel it with a disc I agree, it's throw and don't think. Maybe bring that hammer to an unpopulated field too.

The hammer swing looks like you are connected, just aligned to hit to the right. Just need to be bit more closed.