~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[UhhNegative]

Schusterick is also like a stick figure and has crazy flexibility. He looks even skinnier in person than on video. I know he's a bomber, but I've never really liked his form from an aesthetic and rhythm point of view.

 

[sidewinder22]

Also look up at the Griffey Jr. baseball swing gif SW22 posted a few posts back. Coaches often simply tell players to have your belt buckle facing the pitcher at contact, obviously it's not great advice since it tells you nothing about the mechanics to get there...but point is in that swing you kind of want to be 90 degrees forward when you release the bat but the shoulders definitely aren't ahead of the hips.

I don't know how I haven't noticed this before now. Yeah the Ken gif is very obviously facing targetward at contact. But shoulders are closed.... relative to hips? Well this changes everything.

I was actually referring to the shoulders relative to trajectory with Ken in the pic above, they almost inline with it, slightly open. Closed shoulder drill goes from slightly closed to slightly open to trajectory.

Relative to hips, shoulders should definitely be closed through the hit so they are leveraged, and so you have room to safely follow through/decelerate.

The navel is the same as belt buckle:

 

[UhhNegative]

I was actually referring to the shoulders relative to trajectory with Ken in the pic above, they almost inline with it, slightly open. Closed shoulder drill goes from slightly closed to slightly open to trajectory.

You are talking about Griffey Jr right? His shoulders are basically pointed at the crowd behind him at impact?

I think what I have been trying to do is basically stop the hips from rotating/clearing and that almost necessarily means my shoulders have to open to get my body out of the way of the shot, thus pulling it right. If I'm understanding this correctly now, the hips clear to basically get the body out of the way so then the shoulders can unload (with elbow forward). I tried a couple shots tonight and fully rotating the hips towards the target changes everything. I will have to experiment with this a lot more soon.

 

[sidewinder22]

You are talking about Griffey Jr right? His shoulders are basically pointed at the crowd behind him at impact?

I think what I have been trying to do is basically stop the hips from rotating/clearing and that almost necessarily means my shoulders have to open to get my body out of the way of the shot, thus pulling it right. If I'm understanding this correctly now, the hips clear to basically get the body out of the way so then the shoulders can unload (with elbow forward). I tried a couple shots tonight and fully rotating the hips towards the target changes everything. I will have to experiment with this a lot more soon.

No, I'm talking about Ken Jarvis. The difference between Ken Jarvis and Ken Griffey Jr is one-handed swing vs two-handed swing which changes where the swing center is and why the elbow is wide or forward in one-handed vs elbow back in two-handed swing. Two-handed swing the center is through your sternum, One-handed swing the center is through your shoulders. If Griffey Jr was to swing the bat RHBH he would be almost identical to Jarvis, and reciprocally if Jarvis was to swing the disc two-handed he be would almost identical to Griffey Jr.

 

[slowplastic]

Still slowly making progress, but can't fully fix it. I know I am still drifting a bit to the left. It's less but it's not correct. Also I'm not keeping the disc wide enough at reachback. From the behind view I can see that I'm not over my plant foot's toes...does this start with an incorrect first behind step balance? I tried some wider reachbacks after I saw this clip and I had more power but a bit more right releases. The disc bunching up, still, I think is partly from the not wide enough reachback and partly from drifting into the way of my momentum. It is driving me nuts that I have done that for years.

Anyways, I feel better than ever on 250ish and in putter throws, the side view X-step is that 250-280 range with a putter. It feels very efficient, in balance, and easy to hit lines. I'm enjoying throwing mids. I have lots of leverage it feels like. But high speed or overstable drivers are awful, I feel like the leverage and stability I have gained makes them fly even shorter.

I've been trying to get my head/chin to where it will be in balance during the throw, and it feels much more stable and consistent. I don't know if my upper spine or neck is too hunched though? Also I think I am slightly leaned back through the arm swing still, this is likely due to the left drift in my final step so I can't stay over my foot. That's what it seems like anyways.

Do I need more forward tilt through my stride over my toes? Get more over my rear foot as in to the right of the teepad? I just really can't sort out how to keep over my feet completely. It's closer but really irritating to not gain distance.

https://vimeo.com/285570015

https://vimeo.com/285570151

https://vimeo.com/285570347

 

[sidewinder22]

In the standstill, you turn into the backswing and then move forward. Need to make that one continuous motion so you are still turning back as you plant - Hogan Power Move butt turning back forward. You end up starting to turn forward into the plant because you started turning back too early. In Door Frame drill you should be forward at the start and being turned/pulled back by the door frame as you move forward. You end up planting over the top your front hip, your spine is nearly vertical at the plant instead of tilted back from lower body leading. I would throw from the Open to Closed Drill in second part of Crush the Can like Lizotte.

In x-step, you aren't leading your stride with your butt/Hershyzers. Your front foot is separated ahead of your knees with butt behind. I think you need to pump forward in the x-step as well to help delay turning back. Windmill drill - backswing overhead, Feldy backswing is underhand, both same pendulum motion.

Also in general looks like you are trying to restrict your head and moving rather robotic,not moving naturally and more free flowing and losing taut connection to the arm/disc, your arm is too lose and whippy to the shoulder. Also recommend getting a sledgehammer and doing x-step with pump and overhead or underhand backswing while you move forward and Slow Motion drill.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks very much. I can feel the over the top now that you say that I'm doing it. I don't feel like I'm "pushing" past over the top, but when I compare to my baseball swing in mirror I definitely don't land with the same spine orientation on my hip. I see how I turn back early, again, and will focus on that. More lateral to turn back.

For a complete change of focus, I had some time today to swing a (sheathed and safe) hatchet around. I tried to not restrict myself from being so robotic and achieving exact positions like I imagine in pictures, but to instead maintain leverage, flow, and overall feel. I think there are some positive directions here, and also a few pretty strange to me outcomes.

First of all, since I'm trying to swing through a hit point almost like a one handed LH baseball swing rather than release the hatchet downfield like a disc, does that really mess with some things? I certainly didn't want to be throwing this all over.

Anyways, I seem to have developed a weird jump and drop to the plant. I'm waiting way longer to swing but I leave that rear foot completely different. Am I spinning out? Even with a narrow stance, and on X-steps, I am doing a weird pop and drop to the plant to initiate the swing.

But, my balance is more over my foot and my rear leg actually counters more. Reminds me a bit of how Sexton leaves his foot in this video. Paul seems to have much better leverage/gas pedal.

So yeah...what am I even doing heh?

Shift and arrows for frame by frame on this.
https://vimeo.com/285769237

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, I'd recommend actually tossing it and with less arm bending/curling. You are curling your arm and the handle 90 degrees too far into the power zone and trying to spin it too much, should keep handle inline to target so head/weight is leveraged from straight behind wrist and elbow, the arc of the elbow extension will close your wrist and keep the handle still straight back from target. Note how the lever of the flex bar I'm holding never curls into the power zone. You need to curl your body further back against the arm/disc unit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk&t=3m33s

You are also retracting your front foot into the plant instead of moving forward into it crushing the can. When your front foot leaves the ground it immediately is going forward and early in the backswing. Leave your foot on the ground until your backswing pulls your foot/heel first up off the ground away from target. So your front foot pushes the backswing and it reciprocally pulls the foot off the ground(this should mirror in forward swing).

I like how the hammock is like a swing tracer there.

 

[RFrance]

Leave your foot on the ground until your backswing pulls your foot/heel first up off the ground away from target. So your front foot pushes the backswing and it reciprocally pulls the foot off the ground(this should mirror in forward swing).

SW is this what you are referring to starting at 4:42? Shawn starts talking about throwing objects and using the ground at 1:30.


Anyone know why the I can't get the time mark to work. I pasted this _KAp4Ewi05g?t=282 into the Youtube wrap.

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't think you can timestamp embedded videos.

Haven't seen that SC video before, but yes that is the gist of it.

Frame 1 - SP setup stance looks slightly too narrow.

Frame 2 - SP front foot is already airborne and starting to lean away from target over top rear leg. Note how my foot is still solid in the ground and my rear hip is turning back and increasing tilt inside braced rear leg.

Frame 3 - SP knees are starting to separate while mine are being drawn in closer together from turning and internal torque in backswing. My front heel goes airborne as disc/hammer passes front knee and knee/pelvis all turns back closed.

Frame 4 - You can see SP knees have separated while mine are closer in and you can see how much more leveraged forward my rear leg/hip is and body turned much further back.

Frame 5 - You can SP stance has narrowed back into the plant and turned/spun heel clockwise into plant while my heel has planted forward closed and widened the stance slightly. SP's rear arm is also still out away from body and you can see how much more forward move I've made from the rear leg in the backswing(Hogan Power Move) and pulling the Door Frame with the hips/weight.

 

[slowplastic]

Wow...I've understood in concept the clearing hips for the backswing/mirroring, etc., but I didn't realize until these images I have been going over the top on my backswing on the rear hip. I was trying to rise up in the backswing, but doing it 100% wrong. Huge realization, thanks. Turns out I start so many things the wrong way which is why I end up fighting myself/restricting my positions to try to make the following parts look right rather than going by feel.

And I can really see how swinging the way I was with the hatchet, intention of holding on, changes swing arc by a good 90 degrees. Total WTF Richard throws would result. But I did really learn about how to land on the front side and delay the swing I think rather than being more disconnected and having the weight yank on my shoulder.

Looking forward to seeing how this goes with a disc, but I'm prepared for a lot of disastrous throws as well.

 

[slowplastic]

Very successful for a different throw. Not sure about distances, likely similar but easy feeling, but I was throwing in 15+MPH swirling and changing winds so nothing made sense after it left the hand.

I could actually do an X-step more intuitively rather than concentrating on how it "should" be. Hit point is also way farther out front. In standstills I could have a way more level arm slot, but in X-step the disc creeps up. From the behind view I get in the way of the disc. Does this all start with my left in behind step? Should I swing out wider as well?

I know there are the same issues of rear arm, not fully turning back into the drop, etc. But this is much better for the hit point, weight shift, and everything. In my FH I don't have to think about pace or steps or anything, I just throw. This is closer to that, I feel like I can work from here.

https://vimeo.com/285902504

https://vimeo.com/285902740

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, that is somewhat better. Need to stack up on the rear leg and Wipe your Butt forward. That should allow you to stride in slow motion/balanced and stride the right foot to the right side of the tee first and circle back closed toward the left tee side like in Crush the Can like Lizotte. You are still spinning your front foot/hip clockwise into the plant.

Looks like your arm is collapsing and trying to bend the elbow and losing connection to the shoulder/s/body. Need to maintain a wider upper arm and accelerate the arm through the body/shoulders to bend the lower arm/disc back.

 

[slowplastic]

Excellent, that does make more sense now that I am aware of how I should be getting onto the plant leg rather than being too far behind the heel. Makes more sense to do that Lizotte move, rather than feeling like it's an attempted semi-circle or loop that feels super behind me. At least walking through it with a towel, your favourite tool. But dang it does snap farther out front and extended now.

Yeah I have been bending the elbow, trying to get it forward with the disc in that pocket...so am I supposed to keep that arm more straight feeling? Kind of like how in a FH I am not trying to load the forearm, I am just keeping tension and it gets loaded back when I'm actually doing a swing at any speed? It seems to work with a towel even though that has little mass, so this will be interesting.

Really though, finally feeling that ground impact and how I should land to the front leg in balance finally is making it way easier to get back to that place repeatedly, rather than having to focus on every step along the way so much.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, I basically think of my upper arm as an extension of the shoulder/s lever - one big long lever that flexes and springs(resist collapsing with muscles to load spring - like Snap 2009 wrist, but this is also done with the shoulder joint), it will collapse. The release everything feels extended as one big lever or coupled levers.

In my backswing my upper arm angle is almost 180 degrees or feels really wide out like One-Arm Olympic Hammer Throw. From a forward pump the torso/hips/shoulders turning back pull the arm out wide as it lags behind somewhat, everything moves back together as one piece takeaway like Barry Shultz, Philo, and Oakley except I swing back looser and more underneath like Feldy although Feldy collapses the upper arm more because he doesn't bend the elbow much at all.

 

[slowplastic]

Cool, it's always good when things I've seen so many times make sense in a different light.

So is the wide reachback way outside the stance fine as a kind of tensioning mechanism, but once you plant you need to keep the hand/disc inside of your stance when viewed from the back of the teepad? For example Oakley is way out to the side 90 degrees while in the hop, but once the weight is actually on the plant the disc/hand is pretty in line with the brace leg it seems like from the behind view. I've seen him throw a solid 490' in person, to an island, so he definitely has power.

As an aside...Philo isn't known for huge power but his form seems so textbook and easy. What does he throw, like 450-475ish? Is there anything in there he's not doing optimally or does he just not go full on smash mode?

 

[sidewinder22]

I think you are selling Philo a bit short. Most people say his infamous albatross was a 450' throw in, so I'm sure he can throw over 500' when he wants. His form is pretty textbook IMO, but I don't think he really tries to throw all that far.

There is a local pro Jake Azato that uses the same Philo/Barry backswing and he straight bombs, in flip flops no less and he's only like 5'9".

Everything just moves more together with the lefter backswing, as opposed to underneath where you can go inside out at the top of the backswing/transition and create more change of direction/acceleration and widen the upper arm more. With the lefter backswing you really need to resist the upper arm collapse coming through the transition but IMO this is more consistent form, but maybe not max distance form.

Scott Stokely and Chris Max Voigt(both former world distance record holders) actually use the same pendulum and fan grip I do:

 

[deyo7]

Well, this back and forth series between you two was enlightening.

So my questions was originally the same as Slowplastic's, as in "doesn't Philo/Oakley/Barry violate the inside swing drill?" The inside swing was very helpful in adding power to my throws but I'm guessing that's just because it forced me to stand more upright and not lean over so much (like a folding lawn chair, right?)… With the above posts and playing around with the more "lefter"/wide through the wall back swing in my office, I think I get what you're saying:

So the forward pump gets the pendulum started (and seems to help give the disc its own weight) and then, in the transition, which I understand as when you're doing the equal and opposite backswing and leading with butt into the plant, you resist the upper arm collapse. Then plant and allow lower arm to enter power pocket. Then smash that long connected lever. And, yes, this totally makes it more like my FH, like you were saying slowplastic. SW has said they are the same before but I don't really think I've ever been able to make BH feel connected as one big unit through the shoulder, like it does in FH. I'm excited to attempt to adopt this. I'll probably really suck the next few outings.

 

[sidewinder22]

Inside Swing Drill isn't a rule, it's a tool to help prevent rounding(from the shoulder going outside specifically) and getting your body posture more upright balanced and stacked, Butt Wipe works the opposite side of this like having walls on both side of you going down a tighter hallway. Hershyzer 1 and 2 putt the walls in front and behind you so all these should really center your balance and posture tighter and faster and more efficient.

The backswing can go inside out or outside in as long as the shoulder stays leveraged inside. Most noobs start with an extreme outside in and end up collapsing/hugging themselves really bad. So to correct this you do the extreme opposite drill inside out, which technically should give you more acceleration sans the 360. The 360 turnaround/One-Arm Olympic Hammer Throw is actually outside in, but since you turn your body all the way around you get more acceleration and space to swing. If you go to the end of the One-Arm Olympic Hammer Throw I switch it to FH, so FH and BH are really the same principal.

Olympic Hammer Throw Drills:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYGzTlVetQ#t=7m

Both LHBH and RHFH in same motion:

 

[UhhNegative]

Well, this back and forth series between you two was enlightening.

So my questions was originally the same as Slowplastic's, as in "doesn't Philo/Oakley/Barry violate the inside swing drill?" The inside swing was very helpful in adding power to my throws but I'm guessing that's just because it forced me to stand more upright and not lean over so much (like a folding lawn chair, right?)… With the above posts and playing around with the more "lefter"/wide through the wall back swing in my office, I think I get what you're saying:

So the forward pump gets the pendulum started (and seems to help give the disc its own weight) and then, in the transition, which I understand as when you're doing the equal and opposite backswing and leading with butt into the plant, you resist the upper arm collapse. Then plant and allow lower arm to enter power pocket. Then smash that long connected lever. And, yes, this totally makes it more like my FH, like you were saying slowplastic. SW has said they are the same before but I don't really think I've ever been able to make BH feel connected as one big unit through the shoulder, like it does in FH. I'm excited to attempt to adopt this. I'll probably really suck the next few outings.

They swing outside->inside->out. I think it allows them to actually bring less speed into the power pocket and in turn that allows them more redirection of the disc (disc pivot) because the disc is coming in towards their chest during the initial part of the throw allowing them to keep the hand in a more leveraged position on the outside of the disc rather than more targetward like a straighter reachback.