~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

You must be talking about the follow through. During the swing I almost feel more like my spine/left shoulder is the braced axis to the front leg, the right shoulder/arm is whipped more outside away as the left shoulder comes though forward more inside.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I was talking about the follow through.

Walking through it and thinking....I get that feeling now that the left shoulder can be braced to front leg as the right elbow comes forward...then it feels like at the hit point and beyond the right shoulder would be going "outside" the axis as the arm flings out? And the left shoulder feels like it's almost under my chin coming forward afterwards, is that what you mean by more inside?

 

[sidewinder22]

Hmm... gets weird trying to describe these feelings stuff. I can imagine multiple axis, it's like in M-Dimensions and the body is all tied together with invisible strings and rubber bands(internal torque), every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The upper spine is in tilted spiral forward from a braced lower spine which feels(and looks like from first person view) like both shoulders come through right over the front foot. The front shoulder shouldn't usually go past the front foot, but the rear shoulder can, it should come through forward of where the front shoulder came through. The rear shoulder or arm ends up chasing down the trajectory pulling your center of gravity targetward / still in dynamic balance on front leg.

 

[slowplastic]

Excellent, what you're describing is what I felt while I was experimenting with it all. I'll have some ideas for next time out of what to enhance or not restrict myself from. But definitely I was getting into those positions and I'm picking up on lots of new or exact things in several pro form slow mo's now that I have felt this...albeit it looked uglier when I was throwing, definitely still off on the balance a bit. But the velocity was good and I felt unimpeded throughout the shot. Should be easier on the body.

And yeah it is pretty complicated, guess that's why you never drew an axis over throwers and such. Everything feels like it keeps changing through the shot, and based on speed and body tilt it looks different too. But when you know the feel I guess it just happens right every time.

 

[slowplastic]

Lately it's been lots of small adjustments constantly, sometimes changes. Anyways, first video is a mid powered throw, representative of how I've been throwing lately. I included the pre swing to show what I think through...and even in the pre swing it looks like I over-close my front foot in the stride. So that bad concept is ingrained in what I've been doing apparently.

I think I'm still getting in the way of my shot in the throw by slightly drifting to the toes, as the disc is coming up. And another thing I'm noticing is it looks like the disc ejects a little before my arm would have full active leverage on it. So I think I'm opening up too soon or something, likely the causes are earlier in the sequence.

Second video is after the round messing around with standstills. There are obviously problems in this as I push off the rear leg like Schusterick has been doing, with the extended leg and heel contact before the knee drive. But I'm feeling like I'm landing way more closed, back to target. And my arm slot looks way better, with more leverage through the hit. I think this is closer in some aspects? I've had this heel push in standstills like a month ago, but then got away from it. But these throws just feel so efficient. Thoughts?

Hold shift and left or right arrows for frame by frame.

https://vimeo.com/281345157

https://vimeo.com/281345364

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

To me it looks like these main issues:

1. from behind I'd bet you're too upright and not over your toes with your nose.
2. your forward extension is happening really high and you can get it deeper into the power pocket.
3. You're not getting off that back foot enough

I think you can get more stacked and settled onto the frontside, let the back side mash forward and then push out that brace leg to straighten it more.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I think I'm not nose over toes enough because my stride still drifts slightly.

Settling onto the front side like you said I think is exactly what is not happening. In the standstill I get into that frontside better and I feel like I'm leveraging the disc through the hit...if you frame by frame the disc is farther in front of my plant foot. When I look at video of my more typical throws, my extension happens after the disc has left...so it's late, likely because not getting as far into the power pocket as necessary, as you said.

Do you try to extend the front leg?

 

[sidewinder22]

Pump the ground almost like standing on a swing set. There will be a lot of centrifugal force/g force pulling your weight/pinning you to ground. Will feel like pumping the swing to keep yourself upright.

 

[slowplastic]

Pump the ground almost like standing on a swing set. There will be a lot of centrifugal force/g force pulling your weight/pinning you to ground. Will feel like pumping the swing to keep yourself upright.

Definitely have not been doing that. But I understand the feeling, coming from a boardsports background. Going to be tricky to do at a slow pace, but I can feel tons of leverage and pump pre-swinging back and forth in standstill.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Do you try to extend the front leg?

It is a delicate balance between power and accuracy with pushing out the brace leg and feels like you are continuing to open your hips targetward all the way through the extension and follow through.

I've noticed that quite a few big arm players will shift onto the frontside with the knee bent and as the weight sloshes forward, they're firming up the brace leg via straightening it and it's driving the hips continually open. You can really feel it in the one leg drill as it will push the hip up as you extend the leg. I have little doubt that it increases power, but it does add a substantial variable to the equation which can throw your accuracy off.

Because of that, I find that NOT pushing it out on upshot and important line hitting shots makes me more accurate - especially if extra power is not needed.

 

[slowplastic]

That makes sense, I see McBeth land with a bent knee/leg and not extend on lots of mid-powered shots and tunnel shots with fairways. Another way to take some power % off when you can throw fairways 425'+ at will.

 

[sidewinder22]

Just actually watched your vids. Where HUB says you are too upright in behind view, I get what he is saying, but the way I think about the throw you are not upright enough or dynamically upright/stacked/balanced. In the behind view you would be in seated posture with nose behind toes, instead of stacked upright/athletic nose over toes.

Your feet and balance/posture are not working together. It looks like you are actively internally rotating your front hip/femur in your backswing, instead your front hip/femur should remain in neutral joint alignment and your whole pelvis should be turning back from your rear him/femur. Your feet are moving/landing really flat footed because of your balance/posture are not dynamically stacked and neutral. In the x-step you can see you are leaning back over the rear leg and kicking the wall first and head in wall Hershyzers 1 and 2.

In the standstill your rear knee is moving laterally back away from target, instead of bracing the backswing extending and turning away from target and moving toward target and reflexing the knee back in the forward swing. That causes your rear foot to spin out and you don't land upright enough on your front foot, you are behind your front heel and trying to get on it from excessive lateral weightshift.

Do some overhead backswings. Note how my center of gravity is going up and down and pumping the arm swing like ball on string:

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks, with it all pointed out I understand all of the issues that you said. I can see it and feel what I'm doing wrong. I'm going to have to go through things conceptually and see how to do it more correct, but at least identifying the issues is an important first step.

I think I have too much knee bend, which puts my butt behind my heels and then when I try to be upright over my foot my head isn't over the toes and I have too much weight behind heels still. This is where your squatting in a chair observation comes from, and it totally makes sense with what I'm feeling. I can see how it prevents my rear leg from extending in the backswing on the standstill, and instead I just load into it while it stays in place.

I haven't been able to figure out how to stand over my feet correctly, which is why I've either been way up on my toes in the X-step or now too much behind the heels. Good to understand it's this fundamental though so I'll try to figure it out.

 

[deyo7]

Just actually watched your vids. Where HUB says you are too upright in behind view, I get what he is saying, but the way I think about the throw you are not upright enough or dynamically upright/stacked/balanced. In the behind view you would be in seated posture with nose behind toes, instead of stacked upright/athletic nose over toes.

Agree with SW ^: more upright in athletic position over toes.

Definitely have not been doing that. But I understand the feeling, coming from a boardsports background. Going to be tricky to do at a slow pace, but I can feel tons of leverage and pump pre-swinging back and forth in standstill.

I haven't been able to figure out how to stand over my feet correctly, which is why I've either been way up on my toes in the X-step or now too much behind the heels. Good to understand it's this fundamental though so I'll try to figure it out.

First, I completely understand the slow paced strategy. I've been doing the same slow paced throw for the past year and it has helped me immensely to nail down the mechanics. I'm sort of cherry picking one of your quotes but just saying that I also get the struggle of how to remain slow and in control yet over the toes/not flat footed. At this point, with your knowledge and ability, I think you could afford to take a little more nastiness mentality into the shot and carry more momentum into it. You have the understanding to do this and yet still maintain discipline in regards to all of the throwing principles.

In terms of "how", try setting up on right foot and over toes at setup/start of the address. Watch how Eagle's body position (and face) says I'm going to absolutely going to crush the **** out of this disc. He's got a "forward tilt" which is what hub meant and/or he's in an athletic upright position with spine weight over toes as SW said. Try setting up all weight/spine over front leg and toes at the start of the address.

https://youtu.be/sNNT1s4gsuk

https://youtu.be/sKWNGjcnepg

Side story, that is applicable, if you care:
So, while learning about form at DGCR, I've been approaching all sports differently and thinking about how I'm doing everything. So, in soccer, although I can use my left foot to cross or shoot in a pinch, I've never been very powerful in comparison to my dominant right foot. So analyzing one-two step shots with both feet, I noticed that with my right foot that all of my body weight and spine were completely over my right foot at the address. In comparison, when I shoot with my left I tended to be flat footed and/or with some of my weight and spine still over my right leg. So I started getting my weight and spine over the left foot at the address - and really up to the point of contact - and saw immediate results in terms of power. The other day as I was practicing this a lightbulb went off and I thought, I should apply same approach with disc golf - duh. So, was playing a best ball style with a buddy the other day and we came to a pretty open 550ish hole and I went for it, starting with weight over front leg/spine/forward tilt over toes - I gave my best Eagle impression. Longest most complete distance line I've ever thrown. For real. My buddy said, "woah - I didn't think it was going to do that!" (I lined up right to left stride w/ hyzer flip out to the left, full turn to the right w/forward fade).

If anything starting with more weight on right foot and over toes if anything made crushing the can closed and getting a solid brace more natural/easier. It's going to take me time to replicate this every time and maintain principles and not getting ahead of myself but the results on that hole and a couple subsequent ones suggest that its very much worth pursuing.

Obviously, make sure you still get proper pelvis turn (etc.) and, of course, don't allow more momentum equate to going too fast forward/laterally (I use upwards vertical cross step to slow the forward momentum FWIW).

Hope it helps - I'm not saying anything different, just relaying how the "upright/athletic/on toes" thing really clicked in terms of "how" for me.

 

[slowplastic]

I love those Eagle videos. In the second one in the behind view I have in the past wondered how he can be so tilted. As I should know, any time I see a good pro do something that looks different than what I'm doing, then I should really pay attention. And that's with posture even before starting the X-step, so such early problems.

Yeah I agree with you about pace, sometimes just have to let the rhythm/tempo help out instead of restricting myself. I definitely get what you're saying, I have enough of the fundamentals that I can try to let some more rhythmic shots go with momentum, and at the same time can realize once it's costing my form too much and I won't be able to actually control what I'm doing.

The disc golf to other sports thing has been great for me too, it's helped with throwing and hitting in softball a ton for me. Once I started to realize I was likely FH'ing a disc as fast as I throw a ball, and with less strain, I knew I had to reevaluate.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok those last few posts from everyone really helped. I don't like posting video after first session with new stuff...but it already feels so good I want to know how to fix the glaring issues still present. Good news is I was hitting gaps as good as I ever have, it's so easy to release at the right time. And standstills felt so easy like my arm was longer.

The biggest thing was I started addressing/aiming the shot 100% on my front leg, as I left in the video. So I could feel what it was like to be over my toes and have all that room to swing out. That balance made my stance feel very offset-closed even though it was the same as before, just I'm now standing over my front foot. I didn't have to think about closing my front foot either, things just work better.

In my standstill, when I do the pre-swing on the front leg, my rear heel wants to lift off the ground. Should I really try to keep the back foot 100% set before I start the backswing?

My throwing arm is still rising too high. Advice? Try to do easy standstills forcing a low swing plane? I did feel some standstill putters where I felt like I wanted to pronate through the hit and almost started to feel the basis for the "thumb push", but I was always releasing slight hyzer and couldn't get it consistent yet. Again it's day 1 but it went well so far.

My front leg is still not extending. I guess force the pump a bit, like in that overhand backswing gif? Or is something in my balance still wonky so it's not just happening?

I did get a couple shots with my off arm's elbow in tight before swinging and it felt really good. Too many things to think about right now though to get it all the time.

https://vimeo.com/281885939

https://vimeo.com/281886209

 

[sidewinder22]

Rear heel coming off ground in pre-swing is a good thing, just makes sure it firmly plants and doesn't spin out before you start the backswing.

Kind of looks like you are doing a reverse pivot in the backswing and over cranking the rear elbow/twisting you up too much and over turning. Note how you have more mass closer to your front foot especially the rear elbow over front foot and head/shoulder more forward. Your rear elbow actually does end up reversing away from target during the swing. You are landing really flat footed on the front foot and turned too far back for your width of stance, you should be really wide stance with that much turned back.

Keep your wrist swinging below your elbow. Might be related to pushing too late off the rear foot after plant. Looks like you lose forward compression through the hit, like you extend your spine instead of your leg and then your spine folds/collapses back over in the finish, instead of rotating all the through on the tilted spiral.

Note how my disc is extended further back and mass more centered on rear foot. My rear elbow is in tight to center and moves targetward into the plant with the hips/weight. My front foot is more lateral planting on toes first and the heel plants forward from there.

Elbow to hip or keep hand on thigh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=8m44s

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I'm getting close to releasing a video (another shorty) about this motion because I think it's SO DAMN GOOD.

SP, you need to do this motion to the exact same spots and feel the momentum.

I have been trying to help my friend Travis to resolve some very similar issues that you're struggling with and so I started doing that motion in a throw and it was a lightbulb for timing the downshift for Travis in terms of fixing some timing.

1. No more "Pushing" from behind. Your momentum is already generated because you have your body moving forward. Get on your back toes and download all that energy in the right shape. SW's not pushing, he's using the down shift momentum to carry the circle around and around.

2. Get off the back foot completely and dangle that lower leg (inverted) like a slide that's going to crash into your plant knee. The back knee should be crushing forward at the same rate the disc is moving towards the power pocket and banging your front knee.

3. Work those 2 motions (SW's and the leg slide) until you can do it without losing any balance beyond your brace. You're still collapsing the front side and it should be a balanced compression that comes straight back up. Do it slow and low power and many reps without a disc.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm getting close to releasing a video (another shorty) about this motion because I think it's SO DAMN GOOD.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks, most of that makes sense already. That downswing gif helped me feel how to be more over my front leg rather than behind the heel, so that I could continue to swing in open space and have balance perpetually rather than through a single swing. That made me feel the open area to swing through, then addressing the shot on the front leg brought it together with a throw. I will definitely revisit that motion to feel how my leg should pump. I feel and can see how my spine collapses instead of my leg extending with continued rotation and pivoting, I'll just have to get the next lightbulb fix, hopefully from that motion.

I can definitely see how I'm way too far forward starting the standstill, and how I'm basically swinging some mass farther from the target rather than shifting back to front. It almost felt like I was doing one-leg throws just allowing myself to use my rear leg against the ground to turn back farther. I was trying to get back to the same point as my pre-swing, but I will definitely be aware of actually shifting weight back to front.

What I don't understand is how it should feel to land on the front foot. I had been concentrating on too much weight through the heel, like spine through heel to crush the can. That had too much mass behind the heel/to the right of teepad. From today's video I agree with the flat footed comment, I was feeling like I was just letting my body turn back and I was landing over my foot entirely. The toes touch first on video so I figured I'd just keep doing that since it felt ok and I wasn't jamming my knee.

So basically I was feeling like I was landing over my whole foot, on top of it, and after the fact seeing video my toes touch slightly first and then I get a rotation first through outer shoe then heel-down. I realize it should be more substantially toe-heel. But how should this actually feel? Should I be more to my toes still, since I rotate pretty noticeably on the heel? What direction to go from being "too flat footed"?

Thanks again, I feel I am way closer to getting the missing links. Feeling much more effortless today and although I don't know the fix steps I can see the problems.