~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[sidewinder22]

Pretty much... Feldy - front hip to sky, Maves - front hip rise.

 

[slowplastic]

Cool, yeah I was thinking of the Feldberg video which is why I just ran with that feeling today while throwing.

 

[slowplastic]

Things are progressing along slowly but somewhat smoothly. I'm working things into muscle memory, not there yet, but able to identify these ongoing issues myself still so I'm not stumped again yet. Next goal is to work the swim move back into my throw. The rear foot angle has helped me out a lot, along with a shorter left foot step. It feels good how I'm ending up on my plant foot, and I feel like I'm not raising my forearm above my elbow as badly or often...it helps to go slowly.

What I'm wondering about is disc selection/results I'm seeing. I'm throwing no more than 80% effort and also going in to shots very slowly compared to what I've felt before, to try to keep a narrow stance. My straight putters/mids/fairways are all going consistently the distances that were very good for me before (~300/330/375') when I get clean shots. But my speed 12 stuff is not much farther ahead...I'm just as likely to throw over 400' as a I have been in the past. Because of this I'm discing down more than ever on the course. The drivers are useful for low ceilings/specific lines/wind, but I'll choose a Teebird over a Destroyer so much more often now.

I know I'm throwing better because it's more effortless, slow discs are going farther than before, and I'm able to throw hyzers farther than I ever have even with my fast discs. But I'm not getting a max golf D change. Has anyone experienced this? The few reasons I can think of are that either: I'm not throwing with a ton more velocity, but maybe getting more spin on the disc because I've been fixing my scrunched up shoulder leverage (I don't want to get in to specifics about spin/speed ratios...but is this a possibility?)...which goes hand in hand with me feeling like I throw very easily still and am not smashing the shots? Or could it be an elevation thing? I was at sea level and am now ~4500'...slow discs are cruising and going really good but I haven't increased drivers from before (and they still are acting more overstable than they used to). Even when I try really flippy speed 12+ stuff they aren't going farther than pretty straight stuff. Do slow discs just work better at elevation unless you have huge arm speed?

Obviously I'm still fixing things to get a velocity bump that will push everything farther, but it's been confusing me for a while that my putters/mids/fairways keep creeping on up in distance but my drivers are getting less and less use on the course.

 

[sidewinder22]

4500' elevation change is likely a player as well could spin/speed ratio. You will need to throw higher and more anhyzer with your faster stable stuff which becomes more flukey, or thrower slower and understable glidey stuff, or throw faster. Wiggins said something along the lines that you need to get nasty throwing high speed discs for distance, I take that as creating speed any which way you can including oat and you can see a lot of wobble on his throws around 100mph.

 

[slowplastic]

I've been at this elevation for a while now, but I've been throwing drivers in the 400' range for a quite some time and although I'm throwing drivers same distances the flight paths are different from when I was at sea level because of the air difference. A 400' throw looks like a 350' power flight path from sea level. Just in the past when I've added distance to my putters/mids my drivers have kept going up, and that hasn't been happening over the last few months, which is the first time I've been adding distance to my throws at this elevation.

You're right about Wiggins' torque, I've definitely seen that in slow motion. I can definitely experiment with different lines in the meantime, and I agree about slower understable discs being absolute bombers at elevation...but it does just come down to velocity in the end. I saw Koling throw a Shryke 500' here on a hyzer to flat to hyzer, so obviously the extra velocity can make fast discs go far at elevation still. Just it may take a very significant velocity increase to open up the high speed discs again.

Do you feel like you throw drivers any different from fairways? If you're trying to hit a golf line, say 20' max height type of shot but as far as comfortable? Or is it just max D shots that you let some extra torque/smash happen? I would obviously love to be able to throw ridiculous distance shots/lines, but my main goal is controlled hyzer flip type shots in the 450' range or more, which I thought should be smooth with proper form.

 

[sidewinder22]

IDK what you are asking. I can throw different discs the same way but they will fly different.

 

[slowplastic]

Say you are throwing a Teebird 400', and want to throw a Destroyer or driver of your choice 425'+ on a similar height/hyzer release. Is the throw/feel/power basically interchangeable? Or do you do any more torque or anything, knowing the driver can handle it? Do you try to add more arm speed or juice to the throw or is a 400' Teebird basically a 425'+ driver equivalent?

 

[sidewinder22]

Equal.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

For anything past about 390-400', I have to use something like a flippy wraith, echo star destroyer, 165g-ish outlaw, or a Ballista and get substantial amounts of turn and keep the nose more down than in a more controlled shot. If I try to use a fresh wraith and throw it flat (not nose down), even full power - I won't get it past 400' - but it's still a shot I use quite a bit so that I get the extra stability and consistent finish.

But when I do tip that nose down, it's like setting the clock to delay the fade an extra couple seconds and can get that 400' flat power shot to high 400' if you add anhyzer and get the height up.

At some point I have to start gambling with less stable discs, anhyzer and nose down - all of which can burn you on a golf line.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for the insight HUB, seeing as you have basically all of your experience at elevation as far as I know.

You throw mids like Truths 350-370', is that right? How far do you throw fairways? Do you get long speed 9 stuff (Sidewinder, Escape, etc.) out as far as your understable Wraiths but with less wind tolerance? All of this is talking hyzer flip for straight-ish golf lines.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I've actually given up truths for kc pro rocs, specifically because I felt like truths would have too much glide on occasion! I like mids for 300' and shorter now, and typically when I need to keep the disc flying straight. Mids have become a strange disc for me because I like the control of breaker/zone for most mid shots - unless I have to keep it straight or turning.

I don't like going full power on Mids. There was a time when I would throw them on every 350-375' hole thinking it was a better way, but I eventually found that if I had the room for hyzer - I'd take it for the consistency. Turning a truth too much cost me many strokes. Flat shots are beautiful but have very little room for error.

Then the fairway drivers, which I threw a ton of teebirds started getting used less.. I still bag a sidewinder for tailwind and rollers, and a stable teebird for shorter 330-375' straight shots. Then everything else is wraiths of various beat that can cover all my full power shots(350-420). I keep one echo star destroyer and a ballista for pure distance lines 425-475.

Beyond 425, I'm relying on good wind conditions and making the right kinds of guesses on reading wind and my angles and disc selection. We have one flat ground 500' hole at my everyday practice course and I might have a legit putt once a week and the rest of the time it's a throw in attempt.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for the insight. Sounds like similar disc flights at elevation as I would experience but you have more power. Just we seem to approach our bags completely differently, where I stretch out mids and fairways as far as possible and then reach for drivers only at the upper ends of the ranges (or in wind/for specific lines). Plus I throw a ton of forehands. It sounds like you have power to throw fairways over 375' if you're throwing a stable Teebird up to that far (by stable I assume meaning firm HSS, not crazy glidey). For reference I throw a stable Teebird (handles wind, very solid HSS) ~330' but mellow Teebirds up to 375'. This is just to help me figure out how much harder you're throwing to get your drivers up to the ranges they are at.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Yup, new star tee-birds seem to have little to no turn and less glide. A gstar teebird is like a different thing altogether, and can fly a consistent 400'. Fresh star, they get to fading much sooner.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks, my go-to star is the stability of a Gstar so your 400' with that makes sense and sounds like it's in line with 420' Wraith with what I have experienced (for me 375 Teebird/400ish with Wraith-stability Destroyers)...such a surprisingly small gap. Seems like that extra 30-40' you have is enough to get the super high speed distance stuff going at that elevation, where I'm just not quite able to get it to show an advantage.

 

[slowplastic]

I've been making some progress to my balance. Trying to stay forward balanced in the X-step rather than slosh back to my rear foot and then forward. Also trying to shift off the instep/gas pedal rather than push off the toes. Things are feeling pretty good and I'm throwing with a consistent, slow feel.

But I'm seeing some things and I'm not sure what exactly they are or how to address them. The first video is a Thunderbird flat shot, fairly hard. The second is a putter really backed off for like a 230' hole. My arm plane in the putter shot seems much better...lower pull through and I don't take the disc off line much. I seem like I keep things out wide as well. When I speed up the throw then I think my arm gets compressed into my torso...in the harder throw the disc gets lifted up above my elbow as usual. As I get the disc to my chest in this shot, my right shoulder is way above my left shoulder (tilted hyzer angle). Is this ok? Or should my shoulders be much more flat? Is my upper arm angle too narrow in the harder shot?

As well my shin is way out front in that harder throw, and I stay with a bent knee rather than extended/rising. Is this a large problem? In some other shots I filmed I had a slightly narrower step and I seemed to rise a bit more, but I wanted to show this instead. In contrast on the putter throw, I have a very narrow step and am rising.

Also, should I be pushing off the instep even more so that my rear leg is countering behind me?

https://vimeo.com/231790253

https://vimeo.com/231790110

 

[slowplastic]

Just to add/edit: In a previous post SW22 pointed out that my weight was too far behind my front heel, which is what causes my right shoulder up/tilt rather than having more level shoulders. How should it feel to balance more forward? Is it maybe linked to not turning my front foot/hip even more closed at the instant that I am planting?

This part is a little weird for me because my mirror-image baseball swing has a shoulder tilt. You want to drive the ball slightly upward.

 

[sidewinder22]

Really hard to see from side camera. From behind tee you are striding/swaying too much right to left into the plant, your front leg goes leftward and your head gets left behind to the right and not balanced upright. You can't really land on your front toes from behind you doing that move, you end up planting really flat footed and turning the front foot open to compensate and are also quite flat footed on the rear foot as well. Need to get your heels up and use plantar flexion. You should feel much quicker/bouncy in the feet while still firm in the ground(not spinning out), rather than slow heavy flat feet.

Do One Leg drill to feel your front hip more upright stacked on the whole front leg, not behind your front knee. Ride the Bull and Double Crush the Can - this should help you stack your posture on the rear foot in the backswing and the front foot in the forward swing and get you heels up to crush with straighter/shorter/balanced/centered leg stride.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0&t=1m14s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjxwiN8G4F0#t=7m2s


See how my body and head is centered and stacked up on the front foot and nose right over toes. Your head is more outside the foot to the right so your nose might be right over your front heel.

 

[slowplastic]

That makes perfect sense, both how/why I get into that position and also what it does to my shoulders and head. Walking through it I can feel being more in line allows me to turn my front foot inward late, and I stay balanced through my follow through rather than having that head jolt forward at release. Hopefully it won't be too bad to get this into my throw without griplocking everything right relative to the new stride.

 

[slowplastic]

You're absolutely right about my stride to the left and my balance. I took video from behind today and my shoulders are at my heel at best, rather than being over toes and heel like in your green line markup. I think this is why I see my foot rotating open on my heel as my arm is swinging, just a symptom of my balance being behind the heel. This will take some work in one-leg balance and probably working up very gradually from low power putter shots. At least I know what to try...as well as focusing on my arm plane in this.

In the meantime while my BH has been stagnating distance-wise (although feeling easier and easier), my FH has been being used a ton. I feel like I can hit ~380' on hyzer flip drivers pretty consistently, and I've hit the 400' mark a few times although that's a special throw. Anything you can see in it? I haven't been experiencing any pain or torque, it's felt pretty easy. I've been focusing on shift from behind and push off my back instep.

The reachback looks more extreme than it feels, but I don't have any issue with hyzer angles or torque, I hit my lines as much as I can ask for. This shot was ~80% for 350' line drive.

https://vimeo.com/231970395

 

[sidewinder22]

Hershyzer 1 & 2 and sledgehammer toss/nail into door frame. Your foot is hitting the front wall in part 1. Your head is hitting the rear wall in part 2. Need to keep yourself more centered and upright balanced inside your feet. Sledgehammer should help to load your backswing/elbow properly below/inside the shoulder plane, and hit nail head forward with the head of the hammer to target, and not bending the nail sideways coming across the nail with the head of the hammer. If you toss a sledgehammer your arm is going to whip it to the left unless you release early/short arm/alligator/t-rex arm.

Frame 1 see how your knee, head and shoulders are behind the rear foot. Your elbow is also over top your shoulder. See how I have everything, knee, shoulder, and head balanced and leveraged forward of my rear foot and only the arm/disc/whip is behind the foot/fulcrum. My reachback is shorter than yours, but my turn/load/leverage from inside the rear foot is massive. Our shoulders are on opposite planes because of the balance.

Frame 2 see how your lower arm is almost perpendicular to shoulders = FH roller telegraphed swing plane of lower arm. Your elbow also drops down big time! So much you don't really lead with the elbow. See how my elbow just maintains relative height to my shoulder/plane and doesn't really drop, but my elbow is clearly leading the shoulder and the wrist/disc straight behind the elbow in flat level swing plane. Also note how I now have a longer reachback than you, my disc is still lagged back to rear foot while my whole body and foot have made the move forward(real X-factor in forward swing). I'm swinging a much heavier sledgehammer or disc/momentum using my body weight to power the swing with counterweight, my arm is leveraged for effortless long toss/whip.

Frame 3 see how your bent elbow is past your front foot and elbow lower than wrist and shoulders over-rotated, the power of your arm whip/elbow extension is directed way to the left. See how my shoulder turn whipped/extended the elbow/lower arm with the disc being hit/smashed/released right over the front foot with shoulders/chest squared to target, and my wrist is below the elbow even on slight anhyzer. I'm more centered and braced and ejecting/sending the arm/disc away from my center from inside of my posture / tight rotational spiral.