54 or course par?

[1978]

Nevin #3 (a par 3) plays about 3.8 strokes in tournaments.

It is around 360' long with 20' elevation change gradual downhill.
80' off the tee is a 30' gap and then the hole opens to 50' wide all the way to the basket with no trees in the fairway. Dead nuts straight shot. It does not look narrow off the tee.

Nevin #12 Long (par 5) plays 6.75 strokes in tournament play. 950' with the first 500 a wide open field and the second 450 down a 50' wide wooded fairway.

Nevin #5 is a par 5 650' It averages 6.25 strokes per player in tournaments.

This has nothing to do with anything but Nevin 3L, 4, 5, 6 is the hardest stretch of holes in Charlotte (to par). On average, these holes play about 4 strokes over par(1 per hole). Should I make them a par 4, 5,6,4 instead of 3,4,5,3? to be more fair. If I made hole 3 a par 5... the average would still be 3.8 strokes per round.

 

[SomeChump]

Most recreational disc golfers never make par either...

I played ball golf for several years, and only once ever shot par on a very easy course (with a lot of lucky shots.) I routinely shoot under par on most disc golf courses, and threw my first par within just a few months of starting.

Sure, the TDDs may never make par, but most "recreational", must less "intermediate" players do it all the time.

 

[sidewinding]

"All-par-3" is a scorekeeping shorthand, and probably a misuse of the word "par".

Boom! End Thread.

You use par 54 to easily tally your score. Then you compare what you get to course par...or you compare your total score to the people you just played with for comparison.

 

[jeverett]

Nevin #3 (a par 3) plays about 3.8 strokes in tournaments.

It is around 360' long with 20' elevation change gradual downhill.
80' off the tee is a 30' gap and then the hole opens to 50' wide all the way to the basket with no trees in the fairway. Dead nuts straight shot. It does not look narrow off the tee.

Nevin #12 Long (par 5) plays 6.75 strokes in tournament play. 950' with the first 500 a wide open field and the second 450 down a 50' wide wooded fairway.

Nevin #5 is a par 5 650' It averages 6.25 strokes per player in tournaments.

This has nothing to do with anything but Nevin 3L, 4, 5, 6 is the hardest stretch of holes in Charlotte (to par). On average, these holes play about 4 strokes over par(1 per hole). Should I make them a par 4, 5,6,4 instead of 3,4,5,3? to be more fair. If I made hole 3 a par 5... the average would still be 3.8 strokes per round.

There are two different items to look at when it comes to 'fair'.. 'par' being one of them, but just as important is the scoring distribution for the hole (not just the average). I haven't seen anything about the particular course you're talking about, but from your description it sounds like 3L is definitely correctly a par 3. By the PDGA guidelines for a Gold level course, a heavily-wooded hole (it sounds like that 30ft. gap makes the hole a lot tighter than it appears) can still be a par 3 at up to 450ft. At 360ft. with a 20ft. downhill, that particular hole probably 'plays' around 300ft. Next analysis is using CR Par: at the Gold level, the recommended accurate drive distance is 400ft., with a 100ft. range for a ~90% chance at putting out in two throws, for a total distance for a par 3 of 500ft. Once again, it sounds like this hole is fine as a par 3. Third analysis: intended number of drives. It sounds like the hole is designed essentially as a straight shot through a gap. That's one drive, followed by two putts, or again a par 3.

Next step, however, would be to look at the scoring distribution for Gold level players.. the goal being to have fewer than 70% of players (actual Gold-level players, with an average rating of 1000, mind you) scoring the same. If the scoring distribution is spread out enough, the hole sounds like it's well-designed. If it's not, well then it could probably use tweaking (typically the basket position) rather than a change in par.

Hole 12 is more interesting, though. At 950ft. (either lightly-wooded or heavily-wooded) the PDGA guideline is par 5. However by CR Par guidelines, you have an interesting problem. At 500ft. for the first drive, that's outside of the range of an accurate drive for the averaged Gold-level player. How short can a player be and still make the turn into the second fairway? If it can be hit after a 400ft. tee shot, great, but otherwise you're really talking about a 400ft. drive followed by a 100-150ft. upshot just to make the second fairway. Once in the second fairway, the CR Par guideline for accurate fairway drives is only 330ft. for Gold level players. So at 450ft. this is slightly outside a drive and the 100ft. putting range for a 90% chance at finishing out in two. So by CR Par guidelines, this sounds like it should be a par 6: 400ft. drive, followed by 100ft. upshot, followed by 330ft. fairway drive, followed by 120ft. upshot, followed by 2 putts.

I'd definitely be curious to see the scoring distribution for this one, though..

I'd need more information about the hole shape for hole 5 to say anything about that one.

 

[simpletwist]

Why, oh why is this always an issue? :wall:

All that matters is your final score. I shoot a 60, you shoot a 52, you win!

Now is that complicated?

Many older courses have wildly inflated course pars. But then the technology of the discs when these course were built was still in the stone age. I understand why many folks count everything as a par 3; its simply easier to keep your score in your head. So as long as everyone has the same frame of reference its the TOTAL FINAL SCORE that counts.

Somewhat civil rant over.

 

[scarpfish]

The "easier" part is keeping score in your head, or adding up scores on a scorecard, particularly for courses where you shoot under 64.

"All-par-3" is a scorekeeping shorthand, and probably a misuse of the word "par".

Everything is a par three when counting up the score card.

When asked "How did you shoot?" Say a number not +/- something.

This. When it come down to it, you still shoot lets say a 60, whether its a +6 or a -2. The "54" is for keeping score, not how difficult a course is.

^ And thus is my answer.

 

[jeverett]

Why, oh why is this always an issue? :wall:

All that matters is your final score. I shoot a 60, you shoot a 52, you win!

Now is that complicated?

Many older courses have wildly inflated course pars. But then the technology of the discs when these course were built was still in the stone age. I understand why many folks count everything as a par 3; its simply easier to keep your score in your head. So as long as everyone has the same frame of reference its the TOTAL FINAL SCORE that counts.

Somewhat civil rant over.

Technically, there is one case where the hole par really does affect a player in tourney play.. if they show up late. By PDGA rules, if a player on a card fails to show up, their score for any missed hole is par + 4.

Also, those "wildly inflated course pars" are often attributable to the course/tee being designed for red- or white-level players. It's usually pretty easy to adjust the course/hole par to match your own skill level category (i.e. red, white, blue, gold).

 

[Jeronimo]

God this is a tired old argument...

If an all Par 3 seems impossible when playing tougher courses, use a Par of 4 and just count +/- from there.

All Par 3's = 54: "I shot a +3" (that means a 57)
All Par 4's = 72: "I shot even" (that means a 72)
All Par 5's = 90: "I shot 10 down" (that means 80...)

Pick your poison. It's all about quickly relating the +/- on strokes per hole to a "Par Value" you easily relate to. If it pisses you off when people say "I shot 2 down" and you're raging because you know they mean based on a par of 54, well I got news for you: It's your problem for being jealous.

When I first heard of people playing off a base 54 par I raged, cause I wasn't that good. Then it gave me something to strive for, then once I started doing it I realized how simple it is to track score that way and I felt a fool for ever hating it.

 

[notBOB]

Everything is a par three when counting up the score card.

When asked "How did you shoot?" Say a number not +/- something.

bingo

 

[Hampstead]

Stroke it!

 

[CreemCheese]

I have never shot a 54, yet I always play every course as a 54 (18 hole courses) What's annoying is when you're in a round with someone else who plays course par, but still insists on referring to his score as "1 over" or "2 over" when he's actually at 61 or 62.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think your friend is on firmer ground here...

 

[MrHighlandPark]

I have never shot a 54, yet I always play every course as a 54 (18 hole courses) What's annoying is when you're in a round with someone else who plays course par, but still insists on referring to his score as "1 over" or "2 over" when he's actually at 61 or 62.

You must find every pdga tournament ever held annoying as well?

 

[deBebbler]

Par 54. It just makes things easier.

I wear a +20 or something round on a course like Highbridge Gold as it were a badge of honor.

That said, if a tournament director is gonna give me extra stroke(s) on a hole, I'm not going to say no....

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Everything is a par three when counting up the score card.

When asked "How did you shoot?" Say a number not +/- something.

This

 

[Spookyspence]

Wow my thread got big lol!

Okay this is how I see things

If you are on a actual disc golf park and not some course that got tacked onto your local park.....play the course par! I mean Why would I play a 699 foot hole as a par 3? Now like I was saying, if it is a super easy course I play i all the holes as par 3 aka 54.

Now to the scoring portion.....yes you still end up with the same amount of strokes at the end of the day, but if you want to look at it that way why don't we just stop with the whole +/- scoring system and just say "Oh I shot a 50"....see what I mean? Plus depending on who you are talking to and how you play some one could shoot a -8 on course par but if you play everything as a par 3 you could shoot a -4......

Long story short, its stupid to play every course you play as a par 3/54.

 

[DavidSauls]

Spookyspence, the thread got big because everyone's rehashing 3 or 4 issues that have been debated endlessly, with no resolution.

Since you're new to it, I'll try to clarify something from the "par 54" camp:

We don't "play" that 699' hole as a par-3. We scorekeep it that way. We play it for the best chance of the lowest score, for our particular ability.

One reason we don't pay much attention to the course par is one of the other issues in this thread---there are a half-dozen philosophies on how to set par, and any given course might be set using any of these, or none at all. So it's not portable; my -4 on my course and your -4 on your course are not equal, even if based on the course par. Absent a consistently applied system of par, it's meaningless.

So it's "ease" of scorekeeping that we base it on over/under 3 (or 4 or whatever). I can do this in my head without trying to remember what the par was on a hole, and at the end translate it to a score. If I'm +8, that's 62. If the "course par" is 58, I'm +4 by course par, if you please.

This may strike you as stupid but, to those of us who keep score this way, it's not stupid at all.

 

[bradharris]

Spookyspence, the thread got big because everyone's rehashing 3 or 4 issues that have been debated endlessly, with no resolution.

Since you're new to it, I'll try to clarify something from the "par 54" camp:

We don't "play" that 699' hole as a par-3. We scorekeep it that way. We play it for the best chance of the lowest score, for our particular ability.

One reason we don't pay much attention to the course par is one of the other issues in this thread---there are a half-dozen philosophies on how to set par, and any given course might be set using any of these, or none at all. So it's not portable; my -4 on my course and your -4 on your course are not equal, even if based on the course par. Absent a consistently applied system of par, it's meaningless.

So it's "ease" of scorekeeping that we base it on over/under 3 (or 4 or whatever). I can do this in my head without trying to remember what the par was on a hole, and at the end translate it to a score. If I'm +8, that's 62. If the "course par" is 58, I'm +4 by course par, if you please.

This may strike you as stupid but, to those of us who keep score this way, it's not stupid at all.

Thread win :hfive:

 

[Spookyspence]

The only problem I have about the way people keep score is that when I ask what they shoot on a certain course they cant tell me or the number is off because of how they keep track of their score.

 

[Chained Evil]

Personally I play every course as par 3. It's just easier to say I was -1 or +5 or whatever. If its a par 4 hole and I get a 3 it's still a 3 not a birdie to me. Also I'm not that good so I really don't worry about it anyway. If I play a course multiple times, I just try to better my previous score.