Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[jupiterboy]

Those teeth look excellent

 

[Sheep]

Ya'll want this turn the key thing to be right so bad...

Nose angle is a combination of grip to posture.

"But my tech disc says"

Cool story. You managed to force the tech disc into giving information, that doesn't mean how you did it will work in the real world.

If I had a tech disc, yeah, I could keep throwing it at a net and forcing it to give me the information I want from it.

And everyone is like "oh here he complains about tech disc again."

It's how everyone is using tech disc to measure stuff, not the actual measuring device. And yes, I'm being critical of it to narrow down how to use it properly. Which.. I don't feel anyone is. So. Yeah,

Do any of you guys really watch pro players throw frisbees? Hell, do any of you who are so adamant about this turn the key thing even know about body posture and form? The reason I made my turn the key video is everyone jumped on the gimmick bandwagon without even understanding the basics of posture of the disc in correlation to our body.

But ya know.
Whatever. haha

Do I need to pull a sidewinder/brychanus and just flood in photo's and gifs of pro's throwing and not flipping their wrist up because nose angle is a case of posture to grip, not a gimmick of flipping your wrist?

If you look at the images above, GG is throwing an annie shot.
Turn the key used to be the que to throw annies to help people.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Ya'll want this turn the key thing to be right so bad...

Nose angle is a combination of grip to posture.

"But my tech disc says"

Cool story. You managed to force the tech disc into giving information, that doesn't mean how you did it will work in the real world.

If I had a tech disc, yeah, I could keep throwing it at a net and forcing it to give me the information I want from it.

And everyone is like "oh here he complains about tech disc again."

It's how everyone is using tech disc to measure stuff, not the actual measuring device. And yes, I'm being critical of it to narrow down how to use it properly. Which.. I don't feel anyone is. So. Yeah,

Do any of you guys really watch pro players throw frisbees? Hell, do any of you who are so adamant about this turn the key thing even know about body posture and form? The reason I made my turn the key video is everyone jumped on the gimmick bandwagon without even understanding the basics of posture of the disc in correlation to our body.

But ya know.
Whatever. haha

Do I need to pull a sidewinder/brychanus and just flood in photo's and gifs of pro's throwing and not flipping their wrist up because nose angle is a case of posture to grip, not a gimmick of flipping your wrist?

If you look at the images above, GG is throwing an annie shot.
Turn the key used to be the que to throw annies to help people.

I don't 'want it to be right so bad' it just happens to be one of the more effective documented techniques that many pros also do. Idk why you frequently are so wrong with your takes like this, this isn't Reddit, most of the people here are interested in figuring things out instead of 'wanting things to be right'. I want to know what works, whatever it is, so that I can learn it. And if there are multiple things that work, I want to know that as well and try both, it's that simple. But currently, pronating doesn't have convincing evidence for nose down but supinating does.

SW is the only credible person I've seen claim that pronating can be a nose down technique, but that alone isn't enough for me to trust it until I see it in action.

I've had many people throw my tech disc and most of them (intermediate or better players), within one session of trying turn the key, can double their nose down multiple times. However most people who throw nose up also throw low launch angles so when they get a more nose down throw, they usually end up with a low launch angle still, but, thankfully turn the the key is just as effective for nose down with high launch angles it seems. I never had to learn how to throw nose down with high launch angles any differently, once I learned turn the key it worked for every launch angle.

I've seen other people with similar results to. I've never seen anyone pronate to do anything except throw nose up, it's common knowledge to pronate for nose up upshots. I've seen many reports of people who couldn't throw nose down for months and months in a row a single time after getting the tech disc until they learned to stop accidentally pronating into the hit. Stokley often teaches to not roll the wrist (pronation) on his nose angle vids too.

 

[Sheep]

I don't 'want it to be right so bad' it just happens to be one of the more effective documented techniques that many pros also do. Idk why you frequently are so wrong with your takes like this, this isn't Reddit, most of the people here are interested in figuring things out instead of 'wanting things to be right'. I want to know what works, whatever it is, so that I can learn it. And if there are multiple things that work, I want to know that as well and try both, it's that simple. But currently, pronating doesn't have convincing evidence for nose down but supinating does.

SW is the only credible person I've seen claim that pronating can be a nose down technique, but that alone isn't enough for me to trust it until I see it in action.

I've had many people throw my tech disc and most of them (intermediate or better players), within one session of trying turn the key, can double their nose down multiple times. However most people who throw nose up also throw low launch angles so when they get a more nose down throw, they usually end up with a low launch angle still, but, thankfully turn the the key is just as effective for nose down with high launch angles it seems. I never had to learn how to throw nose down with high launch angles any differently, once I learned turn the key it worked for every launch angle.

I've seen other people with similar results to. I've never seen anyone pronate to do anything except throw nose up, it's common knowledge to pronate for nose up upshots. I've seen many reports of people who couldn't throw nose down for months and months in a row a single time after getting the tech disc until they learned to stop accidentally pronating into the hit. Stokley often teaches to not roll the wrist (pronation) on his nose angle vids too.

Lets see, let me do a quick break down on this, as you seem to be replying very emotionally driven.

Idk why you frequently are so wrong with your takes like this,

GG there bro. I'm soo wrong. Been teaching disc golf for 6 years now. You've been here for... 5 months? I remember helping you with your questions that were driving people absolutely bonkers but I helped you anyways because you wanted to learn despite others getting annoyed by your questions. Yeah, I got harsh with you a while back and thats my fault for not addressing you like a mentor. But I eventually run out of patience. And now you spend your time trying to talk down to me because... What now?

most of the people here are interested in figuring things out instead of 'wanting things to be right'.

I made a whole video on this topic of turning the key explaining a lot of the missed details, which everyone seems to just not even address or bother with in here. Nope, gotta turn the key.
But your negative emotional outburst reply to Sidewinder really shows how invested you are in the technique without understanding all that is going on.

pronating doesn't have convincing evidence for nose down but supinating does.

Uhh, nobody is saying you need to pronate.
But if you watched the video I made and the things I have said repeatedly. It's disc to body posture, not about how well you can flip your wrist around.

POSTURE, not gimmick.

SW is the only credible person I've seen claim that pronating can be a nose down technique, but that alone isn't enough for me to trust it until I see it in action.

Yeah, nobody else in here could possibly know anything..

I've seen other people with similar results to. I've never seen anyone pronate to do anything except throw nose up, it's common knowledge to pronate for nose up upshots. I've seen many reports of people who couldn't throw nose down for months and months in a row a single time after getting the tech disc until they learned to stop accidentally pronating into the hit. Stokley often teaches to not roll the wrist (pronation) on his nose angle vids too.

Your massive lack of understanding in posture and movement is your downfall here.

I've fixed peoples nose angles by adjusting their grip alone. Which, you were more interested in arguing with things than listening at that point to as you derailed that conversation. "I'm trying these things and this is what I'm getting" and that's fine. That's YOUR results. And I think its great that you are trying things and posting the results of them. But you're also posting them as definitive conclusions. The problem is you're chasing data. So the actual dataset is skewed when you're testing it on yourself.

Now, you seeing good results with "turning the key" on other players struggling, I explained in my video and in many other places why this works. And it really doesn't have anything to do with supination. It has to do with getting the disc aligned to the swing and wrist plane. It's not a "magic" pill that forces the nose down.
It all has to do with wrist to swing alignment getting the disc out. If you're having to "turn the key" really hard to get the nose down, it means your grip is wrong.

Basically, it has to do with corrective posture for bad form and bad grip that puts a bandaid on it.



Lets look at ricky.... oh. nope. not supponated.



Few frames later, that palm is in line with the disc angle.



Kaaajiyama

... yeah, not seeing supponation. and he's pushed that disc disc slightly anhyzer.



eagle right. he can't.. oh wait.



Paul can't be wrong either. .. thats definitely not supponated.


What about shoestring.
Arguably had the best form of all time back when this video was done. That disc is out. his.. palm and hand in line with the disc trajectory.
And he's throwing down hill, cause he's on 17 at cedar.







I hate to have to go full sidewinder on you here just dropping image after image after image, because that shit drives me nuts. I wanna read words. but... I guess pictures might be better for your need for proof. Because. You've already clearly stated you don't respect me or many others opinions in here who've been at this a long time.

The issue isn't if it works or doesn't work, if pronation works or doesnt' work.
There are SO many other factors that go into it that a lot of times asking someone to "turn the key," again which we used to use for a que for throwing anyhzer, just covers up other bad form issues.

What you might not understand is that it is more of a mind trick to get players to get better wrist to shot posture while throwing. They are not actually "Turning the key" but not rolling their wrist under at that point. They are not essentially "pronating" anymore, but they are definitely not supponating. Again, addressed this in my video. but ya know. Not a big youtuber, so, nobody cares.


You're not an idiot by any means, I don't think that one bit. Nor am I ever trying to imply it at all. But you lack a lot of understanding in form, coaching and posture compared to a few of us in here, just like I lack the ability to talk to everyone in some fancy way that makes everyone feel good. It's good to go on a journey and learn and go "man check out this cool thing I learned." But you talk back to people as an expert when your new to disc golf.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

If you look at the images above, GG is throwing an annie shot.

Here he is turning the key on hyzers, which he normally does.



Nick Krush also talks about turning the key to get extreme nose which gives him +100 feet on his pushing hyzers compared to not doing it due to the nose angle and it's interaction with hyzers (some physics stuff idk well enough to explain).

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I don't 'want it to be right so bad' it just happens to be one of the more effective documented techniques that many pros also do. Idk why you frequently are so wrong with your takes like this, this isn't Reddit, most of the people here are interested in figuring things out instead of 'wanting things to be right'.

GG there bro. I'm soo wrong. Been teaching disc golf for 6 years now.

I was saying your take about people 'wanting it to be right so bad' was wrong here which wasn't a take about DG mechanics. You frequently have takes like this where you seem to curmudgeonly gravitate towards the least charitable view of what people are saying, thinking, or doing.

Lets see, let me do a quick break down on this, as you seem to be replying very emotionally driven.

Whenever you read emotion into posts here, I'd recommend you remind yourself of how easy it is to mistake the tone of text without the voice.

@sidewinder22 did you read my reply to you as more emotional or more analytical?

Uhh, nobody is saying you need to pronate.

What I'm pushing back on is the claim that you can pronate and throw nose down. It may be possible in some extreme cases (perhaps swooping to a steeper launch angle then the pronation angle or maybe on some big annys or rollers), but I don't think it's a viable way to achieve nose down consistently and could mislead people if they read see SW posting some pictures and talking about throwing nose down with pronation. I never implied anyone is saying you should or need to pronate, but I think some people could get that impression if they were just browsing and saw SW posting images and saying he throws nose down with pronation, even if he might just be doing it as an experiment.

Yeah, nobody else in here could possibly know anything..

You misunderstood my point here, I could've clarified it better though. I wasn't trying to imply SW is the only credible person here, just that he is the first credible person who I have seen claiming they can throw nose down while actively pronating. I'm sure there are other random people who make this claim who are not credible, that was my point. I could definitely be unaware that other people, who are also credible, have made the same claim, but I haven't seen it since it's more common to see the advice of push the disc down with the thumb (which results in pronation) to nose up air bounce. Are you claiming that you can throw nose down while actively pronating into the hit?

But you're also posting them as definitive conclusions.

You seem committed to repeatedly paint this picture when I, for the most part just present "here's what I tested and here are MY stats from the test"; and I'll include if I saw other people's stats who tried the same test; then I will provide some thoughts and speculations about it. I frequently say "I need to test it more" because it's not conclusive. I've also already re-tested multiple things to find out if the results stand up for me or don't and have posted both outcomes. However, at this point, I've seen enough reproducibility from myself and others that turn the key helps reduce nose angle to have a high degree of confidence in it.

HOWEVER, I wouldn't tell a severe air-bounce swooper who also pronates to "just turn the key". It would be easier to get the wrist rotation more static (but closer to supinated than pronated in a static position) and also work on building new swing plane muscle memory to not swoop. Only after those two things are done successfully would I recommend turn the key if they are still not nose down or want extra nose down.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This morning I was warming up with the tech and all of my turning the key (dynamic supination into the hit) throws were negative nose angle so I decided to try one pronating into the hit. I meant to record it but must've forgot to hit the button so I'll record it later if people want, but it's not that interesting to see pronating resulting in nose up, what would be really interesting is seeing pronating into the hit resulting in nose down which is why I keep asking SW to record it.

Dynamically pronating into the hit with light pronation effort

The next throw dynamically supinating into the hit with a medium amount of supination effort:

 

[OverthrowJosh]

1. Supination is a motion, not a moment. The fact that GG's thumb is in that position after the disc is gone does not tell us what the motion leading up to the hit was or even what the nose angle was at the hit here. It is common enough to see people pronate after the disc is gone as it increases range of motion. In short, this picture doesn't tell us whether he is actually pronating or supinating. It only tells us his hand position at one moment. That same position can be achieved by pronating, supinating, or neither. A single frame is not sufficient for this argument.
2. @Sheep i can take this to the real world and show you. If you believe my techdisc numbers are fake I'll happily show you in real life.

Both Neil and I are not merely theorizing here; we've done it. The theory has panned out in the "real world." Not only that, my students can do it. If your theories never make it off DGCR to a disc in the air then I'd argue you are the one lacking knowledge; real knowledge. Knowledge that produces results.

I'll echo what Neil has said here one more time for you… We care about what actually works. We're not just going to take someone's word for it though. Saying you're smarter than us and we are uninformed about posture and blah blah blah doesn't prove anything. Give us evidence that we can evaluate. Give us theories that we can test. Prove it to us and we will change our opinions. We are willing.

You simply haven't produced ample evidence. (And yes, I've watched your videos).

Show us pronation that also leads to nose down.

We can show you supination that leads to nose down and pronation that leads to nose up. Give us a test you would be satisfied with. Let's set something up to test pronation versus supination once and for all. I will pull the resources necessary to do it.

 

[SocraDeez]

Both Neil and I are not merely theorizing here; we've done it. The theory has panned out in the "real world." Not only that, my students can do it. If your theories never make it off DGCR to a disc in the air then I'd argue you are the one lacking knowledge; real knowledge. Knowledge that produces results.

Lol at the "we've done it" dude, but all time great disc golf forum repartee in "If your theories never make it off DGCR to a disc in the air..."

We can show you supination that leads to nose down and pronation that leads to nose up. Give us a test you would be satisfied with. Let's set something up to test pronation versus supination once and for all. I will pull the resources necessary to do it.

You misunderstand the throw in its discrete parts because you are blinded by the total system, which is, of course, a burning bush. Here's a test (but is it?*); acceptable responses are short answer, 150-word minimum: how is the motion or throw-system-role of the lead/brace foot related to the motion or throw-system-role of the Frisbee-wielding-hand?

*How might a thought experiment stack up to a Tech Disc, epistemologically speaking?

 

[OverthrowJosh]

You misunderstand the throw in its discrete parts because you are blinded by the total system, which is, of course, a burning bush.

Can you understand the discrete parts apart from the whole? Can you understand the burning bush apart from the self sustaining, self existing, and all consuming fire that is God? Knowledge of the whole informs knowledge of the parts.

Nose angle is like the racket face in tennis or the club face in golf. It is a utility that can be adjusted inside of the motion (both of which are adjusted by similar motions).

If I want to hit topspin I need BOTH:
1. The overall looping motion
2. Strings down or flat at the hit.

The claims here on DGCR are: "you don't understand the intricate details of the loop so you can't understand topspin."

While Neil and I yell into the void "BUT LOOK! The ball has topspin. If I have my strings down at contact and brush up on the ball like this it has topspin!"

To which yall always respond: "but you don't understand the details of the loop!"

I can maintain relatively the same swing path and hit flat, topspin, or slice just by adjusting my racket face (via pronation or supination). Same swing. Golfers can take the same swing and pronate or supinate their hands and adjust club face. I can take the same disc golf swing and adjust nose angle by pronating and supinating my forearm inside that motion.

That motion informs your loop and your loop informs that motion. It's a two way street for sure. But the argument being made is that someone can hit a topspin forehand by supinating; a draw by supinating; or throw a slider by pronating.

It just doesn't add up in my mind and I'm not being given anything more than the straw man of "you don't understand the discrete parts so you must not be able to recognize/execute a curveball." Meanwhile back on the farm I'm executing and teaching others to do the same.

Here's a test (but is it?*); acceptable responses are short answer, 150-word minimum: how is the motion or throw-system-role of the lead/brace foot related to the motion or throw-system-role of the Frisbee-wielding-hand?

This is what I'm talking about. The answer to your test here in no way adds/detracts validity to our claims. Topspin has been hit during the neutral stance and open stance era alike. Curveballs thrown with both short and long stride by people with and without great lower body mechanics. There are beginners throwing nose down without ever visiting DGCR or understanding the discrete details. I'd argue most of the pros don't even know it.

How did they learn to do it with only the image of the burning bush? Perhaps understanding the big picture is the primary requirement in truly understanding after all?

*How might a thought experiment stack up to a Tech Disc, epistemologically speaking?

Neil and I are quite satisfied with our experimentation epistemologically speaking so I'll let Sheep handle that one.

 

[Sewer bill]

I haven't read all 11 pages or watched any videos on the turn the key thing but I have watched my friend throw who has watched the videos and he seems to enjoy the results and occasionally he does seem to throw a little further. To me it seems to just be part of the linear progression of learning to stop stiff arming a disc.

I'm in the camp of nose angle is irrelevant within reason, I think nose angle is just a byproduct of grip and whatever swing plane natural lever lengths and range of motion someone has. Trying to intentionally get the nose down has never yielded me more distance or accuracy. @sidewinder22 has logged some of my throws on his tech disc I'm pretty sure all of my high power throws are slightly nose up.

 

[Brychanus]

I am still interested in this discussion and the implications at the very end of the move. I am still messing around in this space myself especially because I am adapting many GG motions myself.

All other force-transmitting actions through the hand I am familiar with involve a complex pattern that involves torsion as much as it does rotation, and the direction of motion is often not singular down the action because it involves muscles from the forearms and fingers interacting with the object and not just the supinating and pronating phase. Arms and fingers also never work in isolation from gravity unless you are in zero G. That is why previously I speculated about the relationship between the ground forces and end-of-action effects that look clearly different in any pro I've studied from virtually any amateur I've studied. That also (again, I suspect & caveat below) accounts for the palm down/pronation phase of GG's follow through, but when and where that action starts and ends IMHO is still worth talking about.

Even in @disc-golf-neil's snippet there the rear-on view does not give a great visualizing of the very end of the action due to the Jomez box obstructing it. I have watched a lot of GG at this point for my own purposes and encourage more posting of his mechanics. For instance, the clip Neil shared does appear (to me) to involve a primarily supinating phase into the release even with the box obstruction. Other times he does enter the phase ending with the stillshot Sidewinder shared, and the transition from supination to pronation seems variable (to me). I do think it is healthy to point out that there are variations in shot intents and mistakes among pros. It's also possible that this is a "body English" effect, not sure or if someone has asked him if he's consciously aware of what he's doing/intending.

Of course, we don't have pressure readings from the disc itself, which would put some but not all of these discussion to bed.

In this case, I too would be curious about a video from @sidewinder22 about the pronation he's talking about there. My suspicion is that what he's describing with the thumb pressure in the context of the above accounts for why he and neil are talking past one another. I have experimented with what I think he is describing and it works, but only in the context of certain weight shift mechanics. If you spin shift (which some onlookers and discussants are doing), you can't access it. On the other hand, I've also seen people talk about minimal thumb pressure and just using the thumb to help stabilize the top of the disc/flight plate with more emphasize on the fingers even when they are not spin-shifting, so I am at the moment loathe to overgeneralize FWIW.

I've personally been happy to just think about it as "multiple ways to whip it" as a shorthand, but I encourage and am myself open to several forms of evidence. For instance, there is the older lineage of grip ideas that are about common factors in tool use and force transfer, including this classic video from Climo:


Now we have the era of modern TechDisc where people are using the measurements in creative ways (and I encourage you to continue, Neil, as well as @OverthrowJosh etc.), but I rarely see them using accurate recreations of top pro motions in their entirety, which means that how we interpret the measurements should be approached cautiously (IMHO). I don't think my perspective is inconsistent with being epistemologically satisfied with a "but hey, it works better than it did before in this case" attitude. Frankly, most of what you get prescribed from the doctor is something that "sort of works but we don't know why or if it will work for you" (I work with serious academic clinicians, and they agree - even in brain stimulation we have FDA-approved treatments now and no one who is honest with you can tell you in entirety why it works).

I had also watched Sidewinder's discussion with Josh, and have also talked somewhat extensively with Josh about grip variation and evolutions in form in tennis, and I'm aware there are similar evolutions in golf, baseball, and so on. Sidewinder's grip concept is much closer to the Climo conceptualization, which is strongly influenced by the "domain general" tool use idea and related to weight shift concepts that I still have seen no one else think, study, or talk about so deeply (if I am wrong please correct me, and please also do not confuse me to say that there is not more to talk about there). Is that concept the only or ideal one? From where I'm sitting, people clearly have different ideas - or are they all just ways to use tools and we're just now starting to learn about them? Thus, I am even more interested in what these have in common, and what they do not. I have tinkered with several at this point and landed on one, but would not generalize only from my own data and experience.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yes ^, I've only seen Sewer bill throw nose down at release a few times out of probably 200 or so TD throws. It's typically 1-2 nose up with 1-2 wobble.

I think nose angle is more important after the apex, which doesn't necessarily relate to nose down at release as the disc nose moves around.

Both of these throws were pronated, first one slightly nose down, second one slightly nose up. I'm not saying pronating is a "method to get nose down", but it can be done.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I haven't read all 11 pages or watched any videos on the turn the key thing but I have watched my friend throw who has watched the videos and he seems to enjoy the results and occasionally he does seem to throw a little further. To me it seems to just be part of the linear progression of learning to stop stiff arming a disc.

I'm in the camp of nose angle is irrelevant within reason, I think nose angle is just a byproduct of grip and whatever swing plane natural lever lengths and range of motion someone has. Trying to intentionally get the nose down has never yielded me more distance or accuracy. @sidewinder22 has logged some of my throws on his tech disc I'm pretty sure all of my high power throws are slightly nose up.

Depends what you mean by grip, if I align the disc differently across my hand and try to maintain the same moderate amount of supination (instead of dynamically supinating like turn the key) so that the disc is perpendicular to the chest at the pocket and also maintain pour the tea, I get changes of up around 6 degrees of nose angle from the most nose up to the most nose down tests of different alignments of the disc across the hand.

However, I can take the grip with the worst nose angle and easily throw nose down by turning the key or doing and inverted swoop swing. It just might max out at -6 instead of -12. So in this sense the grip is NOT as important as these other techniques.

However, if I dynamically pronate a lot into the hit even with a nose down disc grip alignment and doing a nose down inverted swoop motion I will still get nose up due to how big of an impact wrist rotation can have and how it acts like a final intervention.

However, by 'grip' it can also make sense to include the amount of pronation or supination one is starting with as part of the term 'grip', but my distinction is I can align the disc differently in my hand with or without changing how much pronation or supination I start with or maintain if trying to maintain it instead of focusing more on the dynamic wrist rotation techniques (turn key or pronation).

I do think different disc alignments in the hand could be more likely to tempt someone into pronating more though, so in this sense it makes sense to include the amount of pronation/supination in the term 'grip'.

But what I've been annoyed by is how hard it has been to find explanations where the distinctions I tried to make here are clear, instead people often talk about 'grip' in a way like 'you gotta grip it good so so everything is aligned good' and then don't cover so many of the fine details because either it's too confusing and impractical if trying to teach the average person / masses or because they are limited to an intuitive-feel understanding only and can't distinguish the fine details. This is partly what drove me to get a tech disc since so much of what is taught and explained is conventional wisdom which often is correct or has a kernel of truth but lacks distinguishing the fine details, but conventional wisdom also has more bs than many people want to admit and then of course there is evolution in schools of thought where what was once taught is no longer considered correct so I always retain some skepticism.

 

[Sewer bill]

Grip to me means the place disc is in the hand and whole body position necessary to maintain control of the wing of the disc through the swing to obtain whatever shot shape is desired. The optimal grip placement of where in the hand and at what angle to hold a disc is without a doubt different for each and every person because everyone has different range of motion at every joint and different lever lengths. I encourage everyone who ever asks me to show them how to throw or how I throw to try different stuff, they'll know more than I do what felt right and the flight of the disc always confirms or disproves it.

Part of why the grip it good base level stuff still exists is because it actually works, most of the time someone is only off by a small cue in their swing to obtain massive increases in velocity or repeatability and satisfaction in their game. These hyperanalytical adjustments may not yield as much relevant results because most of it could be described in the category of shot shaping which most people grasp immediately without needing to know the intricacies of the movements needed to obtain the results.

Best way I can describe it to you is, when you take your car or truck to the mechanic because the engine has a little stumble at idle or coming off the throttle but it hasn't thrown a check engine light, do you actually need or want to know that the stroke of the variable valve timing solenoids on the intake side of the back two cylinders are at maximum travel because they're the furthest away from the oil pick up galley for the head and the intake screen mesh was engineered too fine for the type of oil viscosity needed to pass emissions at idle so it picked up some debris causing your ecu to pull timing because it has run out of sensor range of the mass air flow sensor to manage fuel delivery that dictates a specific air to fuel ratio necessary to not clog your catalytic converters, or do you need to know you should just change your oil more frequently or that will happen again.

What is known and what is useful or repeatable are different things which can and often do intersect but they can also deviate.

I think the Florida sun has cooked my brain and I just see through a much less sophisticated lens of how to throw and what to learn from the flight of a disc.

You're basically in the territory of if you could repeat the specific characteristics of a desired flight based solely off practiced data and stats you're now up against aerodynamic shenanigans which is a losing battle. I just don't know where the limit is of useful information is relative to repeatability.

Either way keep at it I find it really interesting.

 

[RowingBoats]

I haven't read all 11 pages or watched any videos on the turn the key thing but I have watched my friend throw who has watched the videos and he seems to enjoy the results and occasionally he does seem to throw a little further. To me it seems to just be part of the linear progression of learning to stop stiff arming a disc.

I'm in the camp of nose angle is irrelevant within reason, I think nose angle is just a byproduct of grip and whatever swing plane natural lever lengths and range of motion someone has. Trying to intentionally get the nose down has never yielded me more distance or accuracy. @sidewinder22 has logged some of my throws on his tech disc I'm pretty sure all of my high power throws are slightly nose up.

Well said. I do think the 'nose down' discussion is one that is legitimately hampered by tech disc data lately.

There seems to be a weird trend of thinking that MORE nose down is better. Or that 'doubling nose down multiple times' is the goal in a session.

I'm pretty darn sure that neutral or ever so slightly nose down is all you need to really execute, and it doesn't take any kind of gimmick to do.

 

[Nick Carroll]

I personally love the nose angle discussion, but as has been beaten to death, you have to have a good swing plane for any of that to matter. I think it's still worthwhile researching and testing for those already blessed with a good swing, to then pursue more information that might help them further. In my experience, having a bad swing, and then trying to tweak nose angle, led me to an even worse swing. Maybe nose angle tweaks have a cumulative effect.

 

[itlnstln]

What is known and what is useful or repeatable are different things which can and often do intersect but they can also deviate.

I think the Florida sun has cooked my brain and I just see through a much less sophisticated lens of how to throw and what to learn from the flight of a disc.

Context is key. What I can know, what I can affect and leverage, and (most importantly) what is meaningful/useful are distinct circles on the Venn diagram. Those circles may overlap to different extents and that overlap can differ by person, as well. I've been working in Big Data for over 20 years, and see this time and again across different use cases and different industries. Being able to capture data is one thing. Being able to identify what is useful and meaningful is a different skill; and while "discarding/ignoring" data seems counterintuitive in this day and age, it's just as important as collecting the data in the first place. Paralysis-by-analysis is real.

 

[BenjiHeywood]

I'm enjoying the discussion too, but my own experience encourages me towards the holistic solutions. The biggest game changer for my nose angle was suitcasing/briefcasing whatever you want to call it. Keeping things so pronated into the hit puts my wrist and forearm in a position where they automatically supinate through the hit. It's almost like the wrist snap comes 'over the top' of the swing plane, or at least feels like it does.

I'm sure i could deliberately supinate or pronate to control nose angle, regardless of other aspects of form, so in that sense the turn the key folk are 100% right. But i also think that consistency of nose angle, and throwing without unnecessary strain in any joints, is more likely to come from a whole-throw solution. I think everybody's right.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Grip to me means the place disc is in the hand and whole body position necessary to maintain control of the wing of the disc through the swing to obtain whatever shot shape is desired. The optimal grip placement of where in the hand and at what angle to hold a disc is without a doubt different for each and every person because everyone has different range of motion at every joint and different lever lengths. I encourage everyone who ever asks me to show them how to throw or how I throw to try different stuff, they'll know more than I do what felt right and the flight of the disc always confirms or disproves it.

Part of why the grip it good base level stuff still exists is because it actually works, most of the time someone is only off by a small cue in their swing to obtain massive increases in velocity or repeatability and satisfaction in their game. These hyperanalytical adjustments may not yield as much relevant results because most of it could be described in the category of shot shaping which most people grasp immediately without needing to know the intricacies of the movements needed to obtain the results.

Best way I can describe it to you is, when you take your car or truck to the mechanic because the engine has a little stumble at idle or coming off the throttle but it hasn't thrown a check engine light, do you actually need or want to know that the stroke of the variable valve timing solenoids on the intake side of the back two cylinders are at maximum travel because they're the furthest away from the oil pick up galley for the head and the intake screen mesh was engineered too fine for the type of oil viscosity needed to pass emissions at idle so it picked up some debris causing your ecu to pull timing because it has run out of sensor range of the mass air flow sensor to manage fuel delivery that dictates a specific air to fuel ratio necessary to not clog your catalytic converters, or do you need to know you should just change your oil more frequently or that will happen again.

What is known and what is useful or repeatable are different things which can and often do intersect but they can also deviate.

I think the Florida sun has cooked my brain and I just see through a much less sophisticated lens of how to throw and what to learn from the flight of a disc.

You're basically in the territory of if you could repeat the specific characteristics of a desired flight based solely off practiced data and stats you're now up against aerodynamic shenanigans which is a losing battle. I just don't know where the limit is of useful information is relative to repeatability.

Either way keep at it I find it really interesting.

What I'm really after is just having the knowledge and ability to make fine tune adjustments. Knowing that if I make this slight change it usually has these effects. I can learn that just through intuition / feel if I wanted to by just throwing and making adjustments without thinking about them much, but I feel like I learn even faster when I also find a symbiosis of the analytical understanding and the intuitive feel.

It was the same in rock climbing, many times in the climbing gym I've had the experience where a newer climber or intermediate climbing asked for advice and when I explain a technique to them, they have an aha moment and then question, "Why didn't anyone explain it like this to me before? So many people said this, or that, but it wasn't clear." Whenever this happened it was because, in my own learning, for myself, I was already able to marry the intuitive feeling of the technique with a clear analytical explanation of the mechanics. I'm of course not at that point in disc golf yet, but it's part of the goal which corroborates you understand things.

When someone asks, "what did you adjust to make that change?" most people, even good players, just give vague intuitive answers, but I believe if I know more specifically what I'm adjusting that it's easier to reproduce and easier to get out of a rut. When an intuitive player is in a rut, I think they are more susceptible to despair and feeling like "nothing makes sense" because they were more limited to the intuitive feel and when the feel is not there they have less to fall back on to diagnose the issues.