jupiterboy
Eagle Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2021
- Messages
- 997
Those teeth look excellent
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I don't 'want it to be right so bad' it just happens to be one of the more effective documented techniques that many pros also do. Idk why you frequently are so wrong with your takes like this, this isn't Reddit, most of the people here are interested in figuring things out instead of 'wanting things to be right'. I want to know what works, whatever it is, so that I can learn it. And if there are multiple things that work, I want to know that as well and try both, it's that simple. But currently, pronating doesn't have convincing evidence for nose down but supinating does.Ya'll want this turn the key thing to be right so bad...
Nose angle is a combination of grip to posture.
"But my tech disc says"
Cool story. You managed to force the tech disc into giving information, that doesn't mean how you did it will work in the real world.
If I had a tech disc, yeah, I could keep throwing it at a net and forcing it to give me the information I want from it.
And everyone is like "oh here he complains about tech disc again."
It's how everyone is using tech disc to measure stuff, not the actual measuring device. And yes, I'm being critical of it to narrow down how to use it properly. Which.. I don't feel anyone is. So. Yeah,
Do any of you guys really watch pro players throw frisbees? Hell, do any of you who are so adamant about this turn the key thing even know about body posture and form? The reason I made my turn the key video is everyone jumped on the gimmick bandwagon without even understanding the basics of posture of the disc in correlation to our body.
But ya know.
Whatever. haha
Do I need to pull a sidewinder/brychanus and just flood in photo's and gifs of pro's throwing and not flipping their wrist up because nose angle is a case of posture to grip, not a gimmick of flipping your wrist?
If you look at the images above, GG is throwing an annie shot.
Turn the key used to be the que to throw annies to help people.
I don't 'want it to be right so bad' it just happens to be one of the more effective documented techniques that many pros also do. Idk why you frequently are so wrong with your takes like this, this isn't Reddit, most of the people here are interested in figuring things out instead of 'wanting things to be right'. I want to know what works, whatever it is, so that I can learn it. And if there are multiple things that work, I want to know that as well and try both, it's that simple. But currently, pronating doesn't have convincing evidence for nose down but supinating does.
SW is the only credible person I've seen claim that pronating can be a nose down technique, but that alone isn't enough for me to trust it until I see it in action.
I've had many people throw my tech disc and most of them (intermediate or better players), within one session of trying turn the key, can double their nose down multiple times. However most people who throw nose up also throw low launch angles so when they get a more nose down throw, they usually end up with a low launch angle still, but, thankfully turn the the key is just as effective for nose down with high launch angles it seems. I never had to learn how to throw nose down with high launch angles any differently, once I learned turn the key it worked for every launch angle.
I've seen other people with similar results to. I've never seen anyone pronate to do anything except throw nose up, it's common knowledge to pronate for nose up upshots. I've seen many reports of people who couldn't throw nose down for months and months in a row a single time after getting the tech disc until they learned to stop accidentally pronating into the hit. Stokley often teaches to not roll the wrist (pronation) on his nose angle vids too.
Idk why you frequently are so wrong with your takes like this,
most of the people here are interested in figuring things out instead of 'wanting things to be right'.
pronating doesn't have convincing evidence for nose down but supinating does.
SW is the only credible person I've seen claim that pronating can be a nose down technique, but that alone isn't enough for me to trust it until I see it in action.
I've seen other people with similar results to. I've never seen anyone pronate to do anything except throw nose up, it's common knowledge to pronate for nose up upshots. I've seen many reports of people who couldn't throw nose down for months and months in a row a single time after getting the tech disc until they learned to stop accidentally pronating into the hit. Stokley often teaches to not roll the wrist (pronation) on his nose angle vids too.
Here he is turning the key on hyzers, which he normally does.If you look at the images above, GG is throwing an annie shot.
I don't 'want it to be right so bad' it just happens to be one of the more effective documented techniques that many pros also do. Idk why you frequently are so wrong with your takes like this, this isn't Reddit, most of the people here are interested in figuring things out instead of 'wanting things to be right'.
I was saying your take about people 'wanting it to be right so bad' was wrong here which wasn't a take about DG mechanics. You frequently have takes like this where you seem to curmudgeonly gravitate towards the least charitable view of what people are saying, thinking, or doing.GG there bro. I'm soo wrong. Been teaching disc golf for 6 years now.
Whenever you read emotion into posts here, I'd recommend you remind yourself of how easy it is to mistake the tone of text without the voice.Lets see, let me do a quick break down on this, as you seem to be replying very emotionally driven.
What I'm pushing back on is the claim that you can pronate and throw nose down. It may be possible in some extreme cases (perhaps swooping to a steeper launch angle then the pronation angle or maybe on some big annys or rollers), but I don't think it's a viable way to achieve nose down consistently and could mislead people if they read see SW posting some pictures and talking about throwing nose down with pronation. I never implied anyone is saying you should or need to pronate, but I think some people could get that impression if they were just browsing and saw SW posting images and saying he throws nose down with pronation, even if he might just be doing it as an experiment.Uhh, nobody is saying you need to pronate.
You misunderstood my point here, I could've clarified it better though. I wasn't trying to imply SW is the only credible person here, just that he is the first credible person who I have seen claiming they can throw nose down while actively pronating. I'm sure there are other random people who make this claim who are not credible, that was my point. I could definitely be unaware that other people, who are also credible, have made the same claim, but I haven't seen it since it's more common to see the advice of push the disc down with the thumb (which results in pronation) to nose up air bounce. Are you claiming that you can throw nose down while actively pronating into the hit?Yeah, nobody else in here could possibly know anything..
You seem committed to repeatedly paint this picture when I, for the most part just present "here's what I tested and here are MY stats from the test"; and I'll include if I saw other people's stats who tried the same test; then I will provide some thoughts and speculations about it. I frequently say "I need to test it more" because it's not conclusive. I've also already re-tested multiple things to find out if the results stand up for me or don't and have posted both outcomes. However, at this point, I've seen enough reproducibility from myself and others that turn the key helps reduce nose angle to have a high degree of confidence in it.But you're also posting them as definitive conclusions.
Both Neil and I are not merely theorizing here; we've done it. The theory has panned out in the "real world." Not only that, my students can do it. If your theories never make it off DGCR to a disc in the air then I'd argue you are the one lacking knowledge; real knowledge. Knowledge that produces results.
We can show you supination that leads to nose down and pronation that leads to nose up. Give us a test you would be satisfied with. Let's set something up to test pronation versus supination once and for all. I will pull the resources necessary to do it.
Can you understand the discrete parts apart from the whole? Can you understand the burning bush apart from the self sustaining, self existing, and all consuming fire that is God? Knowledge of the whole informs knowledge of the parts.You misunderstand the throw in its discrete parts because you are blinded by the total system, which is, of course, a burning bush.
This is what I'm talking about. The answer to your test here in no way adds/detracts validity to our claims. Topspin has been hit during the neutral stance and open stance era alike. Curveballs thrown with both short and long stride by people with and without great lower body mechanics. There are beginners throwing nose down without ever visiting DGCR or understanding the discrete details. I'd argue most of the pros don't even know it.Here's a test (but is it?*); acceptable responses are short answer, 150-word minimum: how is the motion or throw-system-role of the lead/brace foot related to the motion or throw-system-role of the Frisbee-wielding-hand?
Neil and I are quite satisfied with our experimentation epistemologically speaking so I'll let Sheep handle that one.*How might a thought experiment stack up to a Tech Disc, epistemologically speaking?
Depends what you mean by grip, if I align the disc differently across my hand and try to maintain the same moderate amount of supination (instead of dynamically supinating like turn the key) so that the disc is perpendicular to the chest at the pocket and also maintain pour the tea, I get changes of up around 6 degrees of nose angle from the most nose up to the most nose down tests of different alignments of the disc across the hand.I haven't read all 11 pages or watched any videos on the turn the key thing but I have watched my friend throw who has watched the videos and he seems to enjoy the results and occasionally he does seem to throw a little further. To me it seems to just be part of the linear progression of learning to stop stiff arming a disc.
I'm in the camp of nose angle is irrelevant within reason, I think nose angle is just a byproduct of grip and whatever swing plane natural lever lengths and range of motion someone has. Trying to intentionally get the nose down has never yielded me more distance or accuracy. @sidewinder22 has logged some of my throws on his tech disc I'm pretty sure all of my high power throws are slightly nose up.
Well said. I do think the 'nose down' discussion is one that is legitimately hampered by tech disc data lately.I haven't read all 11 pages or watched any videos on the turn the key thing but I have watched my friend throw who has watched the videos and he seems to enjoy the results and occasionally he does seem to throw a little further. To me it seems to just be part of the linear progression of learning to stop stiff arming a disc.
I'm in the camp of nose angle is irrelevant within reason, I think nose angle is just a byproduct of grip and whatever swing plane natural lever lengths and range of motion someone has. Trying to intentionally get the nose down has never yielded me more distance or accuracy. @sidewinder22 has logged some of my throws on his tech disc I'm pretty sure all of my high power throws are slightly nose up.
What is known and what is useful or repeatable are different things which can and often do intersect but they can also deviate.
I think the Florida sun has cooked my brain and I just see through a much less sophisticated lens of how to throw and what to learn from the flight of a disc.
What I'm really after is just having the knowledge and ability to make fine tune adjustments. Knowing that if I make this slight change it usually has these effects. I can learn that just through intuition / feel if I wanted to by just throwing and making adjustments without thinking about them much, but I feel like I learn even faster when I also find a symbiosis of the analytical understanding and the intuitive feel.Grip to me means the place disc is in the hand and whole body position necessary to maintain control of the wing of the disc through the swing to obtain whatever shot shape is desired. The optimal grip placement of where in the hand and at what angle to hold a disc is without a doubt different for each and every person because everyone has different range of motion at every joint and different lever lengths. I encourage everyone who ever asks me to show them how to throw or how I throw to try different stuff, they'll know more than I do what felt right and the flight of the disc always confirms or disproves it.
Part of why the grip it good base level stuff still exists is because it actually works, most of the time someone is only off by a small cue in their swing to obtain massive increases in velocity or repeatability and satisfaction in their game. These hyperanalytical adjustments may not yield as much relevant results because most of it could be described in the category of shot shaping which most people grasp immediately without needing to know the intricacies of the movements needed to obtain the results.
Best way I can describe it to you is, when you take your car or truck to the mechanic because the engine has a little stumble at idle or coming off the throttle but it hasn't thrown a check engine light, do you actually need or want to know that the stroke of the variable valve timing solenoids on the intake side of the back two cylinders are at maximum travel because they're the furthest away from the oil pick up galley for the head and the intake screen mesh was engineered too fine for the type of oil viscosity needed to pass emissions at idle so it picked up some debris causing your ecu to pull timing because it has run out of sensor range of the mass air flow sensor to manage fuel delivery that dictates a specific air to fuel ratio necessary to not clog your catalytic converters, or do you need to know you should just change your oil more frequently or that will happen again.
What is known and what is useful or repeatable are different things which can and often do intersect but they can also deviate.
I think the Florida sun has cooked my brain and I just see through a much less sophisticated lens of how to throw and what to learn from the flight of a disc.
You're basically in the territory of if you could repeat the specific characteristics of a desired flight based solely off practiced data and stats you're now up against aerodynamic shenanigans which is a losing battle. I just don't know where the limit is of useful information is relative to repeatability.
Either way keep at it I find it really interesting.