Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[disc-golf-neil]

First grip is what gave me a better nose angle. I usually grip with a modified power grip.. I've never really settled on a grip, since everything feels incorrect for me. I can't get a solid tuck with the index finger and I wonder if that makes it weaker as a pivot point?

yeah tough to get a full view without video but my index finger is similar in that it's only the last digit of the finger curling around so it feels weak for most people but from climbing I'm used to having to developing grip strength even when you only have a fraction of the finger pad on the hold so a 'full pad' grip is considered good once you're used to dealing with 'half pad' or worse.

Also, when the thumb is more aligned on top of the last horizontal line on the index finger, thumb pressure can help secure the index finger's grip.

And to clarify my point about thumb position and increased risk of pronation, here's a vid to clarify hopefully:

 

[CoachChris]

Food for thought - How do the Pros adjust their nose angles with different starting angles, (briefcase, flat, reverse briefcase, etc.), and different reach back, power pocket and arm release angles? Is it grip, forearm pronation/supination and/or internal/external shoulder rotation?

It is very clear that GG, from a briefcase starting position, is going to have to rotate his arm, hand and disc in order to have a flat release. So I went in to my mocap software and measured the change in forearm rotation and shoulder rotation of briefcase hangers, RIcky and GG, and generally flatter throwers, Calvin and Chris Dickerson. Here is a very small sample size of unscientific data (I don't know their specific grips and I don't know their exact nose angles for the throws analyzed.). This is taking the relative positions of each joint center at max reach back (RB), deepest power pocket (PP) and release. Hard for many to understand, but I think many of us nerds on this forum may be able to grasp the following numbers. PP to release is relevant to this thread.

Ricky - From max RB to his deepest PP, 6° of supination and 17° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 10° of supination, and 23° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 33°.

GG - From max RB to his deepest PP, 10° of pronation and 22° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 19° of supination and 27° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 46°.

Calvin - From max RB to his deepest PP, 13° of supination and 28° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 3° of pronation and 15° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 12°.

CDick - From max RB to his deepest PP, he has 7° of supination and 33° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 16.5° of pronation, and 28° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 11.5°.

These world class pros have intuitively figured out a way to control their nose angles with varied body positions and timing. It appears that the primary driver is external shoulder rotation with help from forearm rotation. So when you look at wrist angles on 2D images, or are trying to understand turn the key, or pour the coffee, please realize that it is a complex learned coordination that getting there may be different for everyone. I hope to mocap some other pros later this year and I will combine with TechDisc and try to get better data.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Food for thought - How do the Pros adjust their nose angles with different starting angles, (briefcase, flat, reverse briefcase, etc.), and different reach back, power pocket and arm release angles? Is it grip, forearm pronation/supination and/or internal/external shoulder rotation?

It is very clear that GG, from a briefcase starting position, is going to have to rotate his arm, hand and disc in order to have a flat release. So I went in to my mocap software and measured the change in forearm rotation and shoulder rotation of briefcase hangers, RIcky and GG, and generally flatter throwers, Calvin and Chris Dickerson. Here is a very small sample size of unscientific data (I don't know their specific grips and I don't know their exact nose angles for the throws analyzed.). This is taking the relative positions of each joint center at max reach back (RB), deepest power pocket (PP) and release. Hard for many to understand, but I think many of us nerds on this forum may be able to grasp the following numbers. PP to release is relevant to this thread.

Ricky - From max RB to his deepest PP, 6° of supination and 17° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 10° of supination, and 23° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 33°.

GG - From max RB to his deepest PP, 10° of pronation and 22° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 19° of supination and 27° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 46°.

Calvin - From max RB to his deepest PP, 13° of supination and 28° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 3° of pronation and 15° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 12°.

CDick - From max RB to his deepest PP, he has 7° of supination and 33° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 16.5° of pronation, and 28° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 11.5°.

These world class pros have intuitively figured out a way to control their nose angles with varied body positions and timing. It appears that the primary driver is external shoulder rotation with help from forearm rotation. So when you look at wrist angles on 2D images, or are trying to understand turn the key, or pour the coffee, please realize that it is a complex learned coordination that getting there may be different for everyone. I hope to mocap some other pros later this year and I will combine with TechDisc and try to get better data.

Super cool, thanks for sharing. Can't wait for this kind of data to be synthesized with their tech disc stats.

 

[sidewinder22]

yeah tough to get a full view without video but my index finger is similar in that it's only the last digit of the finger curling around so it feels weak for most people but from climbing I'm used to having to developing grip strength even when you only have a fraction of the finger pad on the hold so a 'full pad' grip is considered good once you're used to dealing with 'half pad' or worse.

Also, when the thumb is more aligned on top of the last horizontal line on the index finger, thumb pressure can help secure the index finger's grip.

And to clarify my point about thumb position and increased risk of pronation, here's a vid to clarify hopefully:

"Risk" sounds like the language of a Sith.

It's shaping different shots.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

"Risk" sounds like the language of a Sith.

It's shaping different shots.

Hah, yeah definitely can be intentionally used but for many people I think they don't realize they are increasing the chance of nose up when hearing advice like "use thumb pressure" but don't know how it affects them based on their thumb position, so it seems like a risk to me in that sense.

But you can throw nose down with the thumb deep in the flight plate just fine if you don't pronate either be less thumb pressure or just not giving in to pronating despite the thumb pressure, or by turning the key.

 

[Sheep]

Hah, yeah definitely can be intentionally used but for many people I think they don't realize they are increasing the chance of nose up when hearing advice like "use thumb pressure" but don't know how it affects them based on their thumb position, so it seems like a risk to me in that sense.

But you can throw nose down with the thumb deep in the flight plate just fine if you don't pronate either be less thumb pressure or just not giving in to pronating despite the thumb pressure, or by turning the key.

Disc golfed for less than a year, and you really have what ground to stand on to make a statement like that?

 

[isamoor]

I greatly appreciated the small video showing the impact of thumb pressure is very dependent on where the thumb is. Although obvious in retrospect, it didn't occur to me on my own. Thaks Neil!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Disc golfed for less than a year, and you really have what ground to stand on to make a statement like that?

You seem to have a hard time understanding that people learn at different rates since you keep bringing up how long I've been playing. I've ran into many people who've played for 3+ years or 5+ years who barley know anything other than common lore because they just play and don't actively research, practice to really integrate new knowledge. So time played is not a useful metric on it's own, you should know that.

I don't know if you remember, but I was repeatedly accused of overthinking things early on, but it's amazing how much you can get done when you play almost daily for 9 months straight and think way more than most people that entire time (since they believe it's thinking too much), in addition to constantly testing things out instead of tunnel visioning the first thing that works.

For the thumb position/pressure, it's pretty obvious if you pay attention to how the thumb pressure feels in different positions, then all you need is some logic. Plus, I can't make shit up for long because I have a tech disc which instantly shows me when something doesn't do what I thought it would do. I think you're afraid to get one because of how it will shake up your understanding.

You don't need to focus on thumb pressure to pronate, but it's much easier to pronate a gripped disc during a throw with thumb pressure, and even easier again when the thumb is deeper into the flight plate because it provides more leverage in the direction of pronation.

Of course there's still lot's of stuff I haven't learned yet, known and unknown.

 

[Jaani]

Promised not to comment... But here goes.

I have coached one on one a few hundred people. Played the game for 24 years.

I have never fixed anyones nose angle by telling them to Turn the key. But you know what has worked? Every, single, time.

By telling them to grip properly.

But do continue. This is easily the funniest thread in a loooooong time.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Promised not to comment... But here goes.

I have coached one on one a few hundred people. Played the game for 24 years.

I have never fixed anyones nose angle by telling them to Turn the key. But you know what has worked? Every, single, time.

By telling them to grip properly.

But do continue. This is easily the funniest thread in a loooooong time.

You are attacking a straw man. I haven't seen anyone say teaching / learning a good grip should be skipped in favor of turn the key. I agree a good grip should come first. I've thoroughly tested like 8 different BH grips with the tech disc--I take grip very seriously and find it fascinating.

This is "turn the key derangement syndrome". People hate it so much and don't want it to be a useful technique (at any point???) so they start attacking points that people aren't even making.

Which vid of yours do you show the grip you teach btw? I've prob seen it already but curious to double check it to see if it's the standard old faithful or a tweaked version of it or something else.