Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[disc-golf-neil]

And if it takes me being the bad guy to help push this topic, so be it.

The fact that you think this helps is bad. This holds back the productivity of disagreements. I get such a refreshing feeling of good productive disagreements that progress nicely on here from many people. I don't disagree that there is a way to play the bad guy in a useful way, but I don't think that's how you play the bad guy most of the time. Sometimes, sure.

 

[RowingBoats]

This was a throw from my wrist curl test, I tried to get extra curl into the pocket and tried *thought* about uncurling it out of the pocket, the disc ripped out before the wrist went into extension. 60 mph and 1300 spin walkup which is a 100-200 more spin than usual for me.
[COLOR=var(--text)]View attachment 344966[/COLOR]

When I try to pre-curl the wrist and don't think about uncurling it, I don't get any better stats than this. Might be good to test again though trying to curl extra into the pocket and then try to hold the curl to see what happens.

I think this is gonna go hardcore into feel vs real territory lol. I don't see an image here that represents the very final moment of contact so its really hard to know the 'truth'.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think this is gonna go hardcore into feel vs real territory lol. I don't see an image here that represents the very final moment of contact so its really hard to know the 'truth'.

It's between the last two frames sadly.

 

[RowingBoats]

It's between frames sadly.

Exactly.

Im really interested to know the actual truth of this. I feel like there is not going to be a universal one-size-fits-all here. Its just that the rare footage of discs right at that moment seem to show a mostly neutral wrist. I think there is probably some wiggle room here and that 'near neutral' is strong enough to give good results, maybe in either direction of flex/ext.

Trying to FEEL like your wrist is as strong as it can be at that moment is the actual important part.

 

[itlnstln]

This was a throw from my wrist curl test, I tried to get extra curl into the pocket and tried *thought* about uncurling it out of the pocket, the disc ripped out before the wrist went into extension. 60 mph and 1300 spin walkup which is a 100-200 more spin than usual for me.
[COLOR=var(--text)]View attachment 344966[/COLOR]

When I try to pre-curl the wrist and don't think about uncurling it, I don't get any better stats than this. Might be good to test again though trying to curl extra into the pocket and then try to hold the curl to see what happens.

Let's assume you're intending to hit at that point and you're in control of the disc. You may be trying to swing the wrist out, but your body is instinctively at it's strongest point to hold on.

If you don't feel that you were in control, that would be a half-hit or non-hit, but at those speeds, that's probably not the case. I think you would notice that if you did hit in extension, your stats would be slower (or maybe fling the disc to the right)

 

[Sheep]

The fact that you think this helps is bad. This holds back the productivity of disagreements. I get such a refreshing feeling of good productive disagreements that progress nicely on here from many people. I don't disagree that there is a way to play the bad guy in a useful way, but I don't think that's how you play the bad guy most of the time. Sometimes, sure.

It's because you dont listen Neil. You have so much good things to say, but at the same time you also dont listen.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Let's assume you're intending to hit at that point and you're in control of the disc. You may be trying to swing the wrist out, but your body is instinctively at it's strongest point to hold on.

If you don't feel that you were in control, that would be a half-hit or non-hit, but at those speeds, that's probably not the case. I think you would notice that if you did hit in extension, your stats would be slower (or maybe fling the disc to the right)

I've done this on the course hitting lines like I normally do mostly.

Maybe my body is preventing me from uncurling the wrist too much at the wrong time, but it feels like as the disc accelerates it becomes increasingly heavier and harder to uncurl (pulling / holding the wrist in flexion) so you basically can't do it. You just increasingly load up against that oppositional force and if you try to uncurl you usually arrive at a pretty normal hit from it ripping out, unless you start the uncurl at some very weird time or don't have a power pocket.

But if you try to uncurl it as you come out of the pocket, I think it commonly times up nicely, just like turn the key does, in both cases I don't time the last precise fraction of a second that I want it to happen, I time the the initiation of a motion which naturally unfolds over a span of time that has a high chance of aligning nicely with the final moment.

 

[Sheep]

Exactly.

Im really interested to know the actual truth of this. I feel like there is not going to be a universal one-size-fits-all here. Its just that the rare footage of discs right at that moment seem to show a mostly neutral wrist. I think there is probably some wiggle room here and that 'near neutral' is strong enough to give good results, maybe in either direction of flex/ext.

Trying to FEEL like your wrist is as strong as it can be at that moment is the actual important part.

Last year I really wanted to take the kronos out to MCO to get some really high speed footage.
And with DGPT being a bit pissy with stuff now, I needed a media pass despite having a "STAFF" badge.
i'm like WTF.
So i called phill delonie. and he said to ask our TD for one. SO I asked our TD and he said "there are no more"

I should have just talked to sam. I was so busy though I'd never have had time to do it.

I swear I'm the only guy who has a high speed camera. man i was wanting to get some good power drive slow motion in 3000+ fps.

 

[RowingBoats]

I've done this on the course hitting lines like I normally do mostly.

Maybe my body is preventing me from uncurling the wrist too much at the wrong time, but it feels like as the disc accelerates it becomes increasingly heavier and harder to uncurl (pulling the wrist into flexion) so you basically can't do it, you just increasingly load up against that oppositional force and if you try to uncurl you usually arrive at a pretty normal hit from it ripping out, unless you start the uncurl at some very weird time, but if you try to uncurl it as you come out of the pocket, I think it commonly times up nicely, just like turn the key does, you don't time the last second you want it to happen, you time the the initiation of a motion which naturally unfolds over a span of time that has a high chance of aligning nicely with the final moment.

Are you saying that you deliberately try to move your wrist toward extension in a powerful drive? With the wrist itself?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Are you saying that you deliberately try to move your wrist toward extension in a powerful drive? With the wrist itself?

On that throw, in those tests, yes and then I tested it on the course and hit lines fine. And my speed was similar to my normal form with the spin being a decent amount higher.

And I also said that when I precurl the wrist and don't try to uncurl it, it doesn't get me any better stats, less spin than the more active wrist curl uncurl cue but same speed.

 

[RowingBoats]

On that throw, in those tests, yes and then I tested it on the course and hit lines fine. And my speed was similar to my normal form with the spin being a decent amount higher.

And I also said that when I precurl the wrist and don't try to uncurl it, it doesn't get me any better stats, less spin than the more active wrist curl uncurl cue but same speed.

I would say that means your normal throw has more room for power in this regard, and not that this method of deliberately extending the wrist during the swing is an alternative ideal method

 

[Sheep]

On that throw, in those tests, yes and then I tested it on the course and hit lines fine. And my speed was similar to my normal form with the spin being a decent amount higher.

And I also said that when I precurl the wrist and don't try to uncurl it, it doesn't get me any better stats, less spin than the more active wrist curl uncurl cue but same speed.

Theses are some of the little que's that pro players do that nobody thinks about which makes their ability to control discs far different than what people think.
Why is simons disc doing that. he's imparted different spin than you're caipable of, because his ability to control his spin rate and his speed rate.

When we just look at raw data like the mocap study that chris provided, we are getting one shot type, not necessarily an accurate overall of the things we do.

This is where overthrows deal they did with simon and drew were really neat. they asked them to do multiple shot shapes at multiple distances to get far better data vs just one straightforward dataset of "rip disc hard."

What simon does for a 500 foot control shot vs a 500 foot rip shot is going to be different. depending on how he's trying to get that 500 foot shot.

Dude is an outlier though, so i really hate using him as an example. His ability to understand how to control discs rivals anyone out there if he's left to his own devices and to just "have fun" while throwing. Thats what made him so amazing and liked, his need/want/ability to just do dumb shit and control it on a level nobody thought was possible.
Now he takes that to golf lines and people are like ... omg, wtf just happened.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I would say that means your normal throw has more room for power in this regard, and not that this method of deliberately extending the wrist during the swing is an alternative ideal method

Trying to uncurl it does not mean it actually happened. If you have a power pocket, and you are throwing hard, I think there is low risk of the wrist reaching extension if you are in wrist flexion during the pocket and only start trying to extend the wrist as you come out of the pocket. It is incredibly hard to actually overpower the weight of the accelerating disc in those moments in order to actually get to extension before the disc rips out.

Hence why I said this might be the reason we don't see extension on hard throws. You can try to do it, and it probably won't happen. But the trying to do it might do something.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Theses are some of the little que's that pro players do that nobody thinks about which makes their ability to control discs far different than what people think.
Why is simons disc doing that. he's imparted different spin than you're caipable of, because his ability to control his spin rate and his speed rate.

When we just look at raw data like the mocap study that chris provided, we are getting one shot type, not necessarily an accurate overall of the things we do.

This is where overthrows deal they did with simon and drew were really neat. they asked them to do multiple shot shapes at multiple distances to get far better data vs just one straightforward dataset of "rip disc hard."

What simon does for a 500 foot control shot vs a 500 foot rip shot is going to be different. depending on how he's trying to get that 500 foot shot.

Dude is an outlier though, so i really hate using him as an example. His ability to understand how to control discs rivals anyone out there if he's left to his own devices and to just "have fun" while throwing. Thats what made him so amazing and liked, his need/want/ability to just do dumb shit and control it on a level nobody thought was possible.
Now he takes that to golf lines and people are like ... omg, wtf just happened.

his discs just fly different

 

[RowingBoats]

Trying to uncurl it does not mean it actually happened. If you have a power pocket, and you are throwing hard, I think there is low risk of the wrist reaching extension if you are in wrist flexion during the pocket and only start trying to extend the wrist as you come out of the pocket. It is incredibly hard to actually overpower the weight of the accelerating disc in those moments in order to actually get to extension before the disc rips out.

Hence why I said this might be the reason we don't see extension on hard throws. You can try to do it, and it probably won't happen. But the trying to do it might do something.

Ya...

This is why I think there is a lot of feel vs real disparity. I get what you are saying.

Your description of trying to do this but not literally doing it might be the same as my feeling of tightening up to a strong af wrist grip at that moment.

 

[Sheep]

Trying to uncurl it does not mean it actually happened. If you have a power pocket, and you are throwing hard, I think there is low risk of the wrist reaching extension if you are in wrist flexion during the pocket and only start trying to extend the wrist as you come out of the pocket. It is incredibly hard to actually overpower the weight of the accelerating disc in those moments in order to actually get to extension before the disc rips out.

Hence why I said this might be the reason we don't see extension on hard throws. You can try to do it, and it probably won't happen. But the trying to do it might do something.

I will say that this style of throwing is an older style of throwing.
I play with a lo tof 80's and 90's golfers. and their throw style is so drastically different thanwhat we are doing now.
They focus a lot more on shot shapes and disc control vs what we are trying to do. their limitations were based on the limited numbers of discs and their personal style of throwing.

There are multiple golfers I play with that throw a poppy wrist based throw based on what they are trying to do and hwo they are trying to control the discs.

There is a lot to learn from these guys still, becuase there are shot shapes and things they do that modern pro golfers dont do.

But one thing a lot of these older golfers dont do is follow through as agressively as we do with our higher powered throws.

 

[RowingBoats]

I will say that this style of throwing is an older style of throwing.
I play with a lo tof 80's and 90's golfers. and their throw style is so drastically different thanwhat we are doing now.
They focus a lot more on shot shapes and disc control vs what we are trying to do. their limitations were based on the limited numbers of discs and their personal style of throwing.

There are multiple golfers I play with that throw a poppy wrist based throw based on what they are trying to do and hwo they are trying to control the discs.

There is a lot to learn from these guys still, becuase there are shot shapes and things they do that modern pro golfers dont do.

But one thing a lot of these older golfers dont do is follow through as agressively as we do with our higher powered throws.

I think there is a ton of room for all kinds of throws like this to this day.

I suppose I assume in this particular discussion we are talking about maximum power and leverage on the disc. Throwing slower control shots has a ton of room for creativity imo.

This was one of my issues honestly...trying to shoehorn the max power concepts into my touch shots when it had absolutely no benefit at all.

 

[Sheep]

Ya...

This is why I think there is a lot of feel vs real disparity. I get what you are saying.

Your description of trying to do this but not literally doing it might be the same as my feeling of tightening up to a strong af wrist grip at that moment.

I should have mentioned that in the short video. some of the wrist pop sutff is feel vs real. The wrist moves, just agressviely after the disc has left the hand. but the part i was trying to emphasies is that it happens prior to the disc leaving the hand, its in the ... brain died.
it's in the process of starting, not the actual que or action, its the result of the forces being appiled and how actively we resist them.

 

[RowingBoats]

Theses are some of the little que's that pro players do that nobody thinks about which makes their ability to control discs far different than what people think.
Why is simons disc doing that. he's imparted different spin than you're caipable of, because his ability to control his spin rate and his speed rate.

When we just look at raw data like the mocap study that chris provided, we are getting one shot type, not necessarily an accurate overall of the things we do.

This is where overthrows deal they did with simon and drew were really neat. they asked them to do multiple shot shapes at multiple distances to get far better data vs just one straightforward dataset of "rip disc hard."

What simon does for a 500 foot control shot vs a 500 foot rip shot is going to be different. depending on how he's trying to get that 500 foot shot.

Dude is an outlier though, so i really hate using him as an example. His ability to understand how to control discs rivals anyone out there if he's left to his own devices and to just "have fun" while throwing. Thats what made him so amazing and liked, his need/want/ability to just do dumb shit and control it on a level nobody thought was possible.
Now he takes that to golf lines and people are like ... omg, wtf just happened.

Did you see his roller this weekend lol?