Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[Sheep]

I think there is a ton of room for all kinds of throws like this to this day.

I suppose I assume in this particular discussion we are talking about maximum power and leverage on the disc. Throwing slower control shots has a ton of room for creativity imo.

This was one of my issues honestly...trying to shoehorn the max power concepts into my touch shots when it had absolutely no benefit at all.

It's fun playing with them watching them throw shots so nonchalontly and getting the distance they do with the techniques and discs they use.
Their ability to control hyzers and minipulate the disc is far different than what we are doing today. Stuff you watch the throw and you're like. wtf was that. and then the disc just does stuff and your jaw drops because they let the disc do so much work for them based on how they minipulated it.

 

[Sheep]

Did you see his roller this weekend lol?

omg no. was it insane?
MVP discs are so good at rollers, its just nuts how much better you can throw rollers with MVP stuff.

 

[CoachChris]

(trying to interpret) So, the inertial force from CoM of the disc does not pull the wrist into a neutral line,

The line of force being applied is not in a position to pull the wrist in to neutral. At the moment of release the arm/wrist/thumb/index are applying a tangential force slightly more than 90° from the release direction of the disc. The COM of the disc is rotating around the thumb/index. If you were to hold on to the disc it might align the wrist. But as it nears release, the COM of the disc is rotating around your thumb/index and not following your wrist direction. Disc ends up going towards the target (if you're lucky) and your hand is going about 90° to the right. (RHBH)

 

[RowingBoats]

omg no. was it insane?
MVP discs are so good at rollers, its just nuts how much better you can throw rollers with MVP stuff.

 

[itlnstln]

Trying to uncurl it does not mean it actually happened. If you have a power pocket, and you are throwing hard, I think there is low risk of the wrist reaching extension if you are in wrist flexion during the pocket and only start trying to extend the wrist as you come out of the pocket. It is incredibly hard to actually overpower the weight of the accelerating disc in those moments in order to actually get to extension before the disc rips out.

Hence why I said this might be the reason we don't see extension on hard throws. You can try to do it, and it probably won't happen. But the trying to do it might do something.

This was the effect I was trying to describe when mentioning players that follow through in extension. It could be that you stopped your wrist in a neutral position on purpose, or it could be that your wrist is trying to move past neutral but inertia (and maybe instinct) is keeping your wrist neutral. Both things could be true. I think newer, more powerful players are actively stopping their wrist at neutral and older, finesse players (I think of JK and MJ here) are doing the latter

If you got to extension at the hit, your leveraging of the disc is off since you would have to extend before you generated optimum inertia (or you're moving really slow like an up shot)

Another way to think about it is using Sidewinder's hammer analogy. If you're using a hammer to hit a nail at your disc hit point, you wouldn't want your wrist to extend to swing the hammer. You're going to want to use body through the lower arm and keep the wrist in the strongest position

 

[Sheep]

The line of force being applied is not in a position to pull the wrist in to neutral. At the moment of release the arm/wrist/thumb/index are applying a tangential force slightly more than 90° from the release direction of the disc. The COM of the disc is rotating around the thumb/index. If you were to hold on to the disc it might align the wrist. But as it nears release, the COM of the disc is rotating around your thumb/index and not following your wrist direction. Disc ends up going towards the target (if you're lucky) and your hand is going about 90° to the right. (RHBH)

sort of
As i tried to explain in my video. were trying to resist that disc pushing out and cocking our wrist.
Which like you said, a lot of am players throw with a wrist angle that is poor.
The forces are there, its up to our techinque to keep them correct.
While the disc is rotating out from those points, the more things we can have aligned to the target the better.
Because if we look at forehand technique, rolling the wrist in a forehand despite it actually being rolled after the disc has left the hand imparts a level of torque on the disc.
So theorietically if our wrist is in a position to naturally pronate, that minute amount of change is going to transfer into the disc, and being when we add distnace/lenght to any level of angle change, the larger the distance, the more change we'll see.
So a wrist angle that is 1 degree off, could lead to 2 or 3 degree's of difference in the disc when its finally exiting our hands.
Does that make sense?
Our wrist, no matter how hard we we want it to is going to move a bit, and that math compounds.

 

[Sheep]

That sounds like my voiceover work. hahaha. funny.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Ya...

This is why I think there is a lot of feel vs real disparity. I get what you are saying.

Your description of trying to do this but not literally doing it might be the same as my feeling of tightening up to a strong af wrist grip at that moment.

It would be really interesting to get good quality camera footage of a big arm and have them actively try to get to wrist extension and see it's even possible on a big rip.

 

[Sheep]

It would be really interesting to get good quality camera footage of a big arm and have them actively try to get to wrist extension and see it's even possible on a big rip.

I don't have that player access.
The only person who'd do anything with me is oakley if i asked him to.

GGwould do it if i could get ahold of him, he's cool AF.

 

[GripEnemy]

@Brychanus (and the whole thread/posters really)

 

[CoachChris]

Yes, I do agree that the wrist doesn't need to extend past around the neutral point, but I don't believe there is no movement in the extension direction at all during the swing at any point.

Depending on how much a player flexes(curls) their wrist into the PP, there is some extending from a curled position but I haven't seen anyone (that I have motion captured (20) or filmed from drone above (100)) get back to a neutral position. See my earlier response as to why. Most of the release wrist positions I have observed are similar to how you would put the wrist in its strongest position anatomically, or how you would do a chin up.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I will say that this style of throwing is an older style of throwing.
I play with a lo tof 80's and 90's golfers. and their throw style is so drastically different thanwhat we are doing now.
They focus a lot more on shot shapes and disc control vs what we are trying to do. their limitations were based on the limited numbers of discs and their personal style of throwing.

There are multiple golfers I play with that throw a poppy wrist based throw based on what they are trying to do and hwo they are trying to control the discs.

There is a lot to learn from these guys still, becuase there are shot shapes and things they do that modern pro golfers dont do.

But one thing a lot of these older golfers dont do is follow through as agressively as we do with our higher powered throws.

Yeah but they are throwing softer approach style mostly? Or medium power mostly? That's kind of a separate issue from what I'm getting at which is why I put caveats about throwing hard and with a strong power pocket.

I do like focusing on more wrist curl and uncurl for approach shots though. It helps power down and coil and reach back less when you have something else to focus on to get power but be constrained so it's harder to juice it.

 

[Sheep]

Yeah but they are throwing softer approach style mostly? Or medium power mostly? That's kind of a separate issue from what I'm getting at which is why I put caveats about throwing hard and with a strong power pocket.

I do like focusing on more wrist curl and uncurl for approach shots though. It helps power down and coil and reach back less when you have something else to focus on to get power but be constrained so it's harder to juice it.

approaches?
Thats where the game changer is.
Its a completly different game for them.
You wanna see laser beams? they throw a completly different short game.

I usually wrist curl and pop on approaches, because i want the spin and control for my angles.

 

[CoachChris]

I think this is gonna go hardcore into feel vs real territory lol. I don't see an image here that represents the very final moment of contact so its really hard to know the 'truth'.

 

[RowingBoats]

Depending on how much a player flexes(curls) their wrist into the PP, there is some extending from a curled position but I haven't seen anyone (that I have motion captured (20) or filmed from drone above (100)) get back to a neutral position. See my earlier response as to why. Most of the release wrist positions I have observed are similar to how you would put the wrist in its strongest position anatomically, or how you would do a chin up.

Ya, for real I'm not arguing I have no actual idea about what is truly happening.

I will say that I fully 100% agree that you need your wrist to feel like it is as strong as possible though. I do a lot of pull-ups and I concur that this is a good comparison.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

If you go to a tournament and you can get into the pro practice area somehow and set up a net with a tech disc, they will come like flies to a light That's what happened to me, too bad it was literally fully night by the time it happened and not enough time / light to get them to try more shit.

 

[RowingBoats]

View attachment 344969

Ya, and to me this looks at least for all practical purposes...about neutral.

My comment was just about the missing actual image in the sequence posted above

 

[CoachChris]

So a wrist angle that is 1 degree off, could lead to 2 or 3 degree's of difference in the disc when it's finally exiting our hands.
Does that make sense?

Yes, but it gets more complicated than that because if during a round, we decide to apply more power than our standard stock throw the disc will get tugged more to the right and tend to hit first available. Each person's natural release point is tied to the power being applied.

 

[RowingBoats]

approaches?
Thats where the game changer is.
Its a completly different game for them.
You wanna see laser beams? they throw a completly different short game.

I usually wrist curl and pop on approaches, because i want the spin and control for my angles.

I think there are lots of pros who do this today still.

It seems like the power form is starting to converge on an ideal, but the short game/putting is still very open to individual creativity. I actually don't see a reason for this to change in the sport, but who knows.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think there are lots of pros who do this today still.

It seems like the power form is starting to converge on an ideal, but the short game/putting is still very open to individual creativity. I actually don't see a reason for this to change in the sport, but who knows.

When the wrist is neutral and you curl your fingers into the palm it makes the base knuckles protrude up so that the back of the hand from the base of the forearm to the knuckles creates a slope in the direction of extension--hard to tell eyeballing it but it looks to be around a 20-30 degree slope.

In the picture the fingers are curled and the back of the hand appears fairly aligned with the wrist/forearm which means it's deceptively more flexion than it seems because the slope of the back of the hand is negated by flexion to make it look more neutral, plus there still is some visible flexion on top of that.

In common conversation though, calling it neutral would be less confusing